Rethinking the whole vintage guitar thing

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

I have been rethinking the whole vintage guitar thing lately. I have owned some fine vintage archtops over the years and some more contemporary ones - though my youngest guitar (my Tal Farlow) is still 21 years old - and I cannot honestly say that the vintage guitars are necessarily "better" than my more recent ones. On the contrary, my more recent ones are much more stable and generally better playing.

This does not mean that vintage guitars sound the same. They often sound special. But from a player's perspective, I prefer the stability and playability of more recent guitars.

Sound wise, my 1998 Tal Farlow will easily hold its own against any vintage guitar. And as a matter of fact, my 1982 mahogany ES 175 with the Tim Shaw pups is the best 175 I have played so far, including some vintage ones I tried out that were in the 5-10k realm. Yes, their modern laminate plates are thicker making them less responsive acoustically but amplified they sound really good too and absolutely in the classic ES vein.

And, to be frank, if you don't know what you are doing, a vintage guitar can be a real gamble. More often than not there's a sunken top to fix, a fretboard to be planed and refretted (if not a complete neck reset) and even if you get it in great playing condition it is often too expensive and risky to take it to your 50 bucks gig ... Over here high end vintage guitars are so ridiculously expensive that their price quality ratio is kind of dubious, to say the least.

A much as I love my 1947 ES 300 and my 1964 ES 125 ... I would survive with just my Norlin 175 too.

Any thoughts on this? I'd like to do a Blog on this topic.

DB

[DRS]

I agree

Guitars can be musical instruments.
Guitars can be a fetish.

[Klatu]

It seems to me that we are living a golden age of archtops with all the boutique builders that are out there producing top notch instruments. The guitars that we see coming out of small shops inspired by the greats of the past as well as contemporary legends such as Benedetto are the equal of most instruments vintage instruments coming out of Gibson, Epiphone, and the boutique builders of the past.

That said, I've had very good luck dealing in vintage Epiphones (which happen to be my obsession), as I currently own four Epiphone Triumphs. All of them required some work to be made playable, ranging from a refrett to a neck reset. However, when all is said and done, I consider them to play nearly as easily as my modern Heritage and Hofner guitars while sounding glorious.

My dream is that the guitar playing world turns against vintage guitars, causing their prices to plummet, and leaving them all to me!

[Franz 1997]

Interesting topic. There's no doubt that many vintage guitars are very attractive visually, particularly with a faded and patinated nitro finish ( which many of them had- poly wasn't a standard finish before the late 60s.). Just compare a 60s sunburst finish to some of the ugly black/brown sunbursts of the 80s...But obviously enough, these intruments show their age in structural ways, needed serious maintainance in some cases. Do they sound better? I've had a few, and I'm not sure - but what I am sure of is they need more maintanance. One particular annoyance for me is the Gibson ( and Epiphone) truss rod design; this is still marketed as a 'historic truss rod", but in my book this is not a particularly good design, and modern 2 way struss rods give far greater neck stability, less wood routed out for the nut cavity, and with no need to crank the truss rod to get a nearly-straight neck with heavy strings. Not quite sure why " historic" is seen as an added-value in marketing terms....

[dickbanks]

Guitars; There are "collectors" and there are "players." And I guess if you have money to burn, the first can serve as the second.

I have no use personally for collector guitars--I really don't value them other than to look at them. And it serves me as well to see yours, so I don't need to own my own.

So if Gibson or Fender gets it right with a "re-issue," or a "traditional," that's where my money goes. And if I thought that an Epiphone or Squier played just as good as the parent company models, that's what I would own.

Plus, God help me, I'm just too clumsy to own a fine instrument. Sooner or later I'm gonna ding it.

[Skip Ellis]

I've always thought that the whole thing was driven by so called 'vintage dealers' and uninformed rock stars and the rest of the sheep went along for the ride. If George Gruhn said a particular instrument was worth 'x' or a particular Martin was worth 5 figures, then the great unwashed out there thought all Martins were worth that regardless of condition and the prices went on up. There were some bad old Gibsons, bad old Fenders, bad old Martins and bad old everything else. Rarity played into it, but maybe the rarity came from not being so good to start with. I had a '59 'burst LP back in the day - got it cheap, wasn't impressed, sold it and made money. Same with some Martins over the years. I was a dealer so I admit I took advantage of it but you still can't convince me that white bobbins in a humbucker sound any different than black ones.

[rmpmcdermott]

I think there are some really magical vintage instruments. But I'll tell you I've played more pre-CBS Strats that were dogs than I've played that were magical. And most have just been solid, good sounding instruments.

So, not that much different from what you get today.

(Though I can't speak to archtops.)

[Doctor Jeff]

Agree wholeheartedly. Guitars are tools, and unless you're collecting as an end to itself use whatever does the job.

My go-to guitar is an '02 Gibson ES-135--an incredible bargain when I got it a few years ago. Required no work whatsoever except new strings.

My oldest guitar that is highly playable is a '64 Harmony Brilliant Cutaway, which has required no work since I acquired it except adding a DeArmond pickup. I don't find it as enjoyable as the 135 and quite a bit trickier to get the sound I want.

I used to collect old handtools, and still have a small collection of Stanley handplanes. If they worked as well as or better than their modern counterparts, I kept them, otherwise sold them to buy more. As with guitars, now there are relatively cheap, high quality tools available that do rival their historic models--which was not the case 20 years ago.

[Mccolalx]

I'm feeling the same way.

When I was in the market for a new archtop recently, I spent 3 months playing any and everything that came into the guitar stores around Nashville (quite a lot of shops/guitars.) I was focused on vintage, but couldn't find anything that felt as comfortable as my 90's Heritage Eagle. Even the stuff well above my $3000 cap didn't seem very impressive.
I was lucky enough to find a repaired 2013 Tal Farlow, and it is hands down the best feeling and sounding guitar that I have come across.

I do think that a lot of vintage guitar stores (at least ones that I'm familiar with) could do a better job of setting the instruments up. A poorly set up $7000 archtop with sketchy strings doesn't really sell itself, at least to a player.

The other thing that I always think about these days is that the guys that made me want to play a big archtop weren't usually playing vintage guitars. Wes, Johnny Smith, Kenny Burrell...they all played fairly new instruments. The guitar sound on those albums (not the sound of the player and his hands) was always fairly new gear. Same (and maybe even more pronounced) with vintage amps...a vintage AC30 typically doesn't sound like a new handwired AC30, and the Beatles were always using new ones.

[deacon Mark]

With any guitars period regardless of vintage thing there is a point of dimishing returns. This will really be specific to the player. I would pretty much agree although some certain sounds are cool that do seem to come from specific guitars. I am thinking the Gibson P90 sound of some laminate archtops that you can get today but not sure if they capture the sound.

The GIbson L5 maybe " THEE JAZZ GUITAR" of all time has a price point. One can get almost the same sound in a number of other guitars and frankly when plugged in the vintage thing goes out the window. So how important is it to you to have a true GIbson L5. Another area though the the vintage do have an edge is with acoustic archtops. While one can find them all over the place a Gibson or Epi from the 30's through late 50's will have a sound that I just do not think acoustically will be matched. That would require time and the particulars of the era in which it was build as well as the process. It is up to the player to decide if in fact the vintage thing has the edge.

In my view a fine Super 400 acoustic or L5 from those glory years, at least a good one I have not really seen builders who capture that sound directly. THey may actually build better sounding guitars but again it is personal perference. One can buy a fine Cutaway L5 from the 1940's for about what a new boutique guitar will go for new. I think a new Campy can be had for a better price than a vintage L5. Both great guitars and as much as I love my Campy and Mark is a nice fellow making great guitars, a Gibson is probably a smarter buy if you are going think of selling it at some point.

[Skip Ellis]

Unfortunately, there are players who think that owning and playing the exact same guitar/amp/pedal/string/pick combination as their idol will make them sound just like them. 'Taint true - I think you should spend more time trying to play what you have (assuming decent quality and setup) and developing your own sound. I sound like me regardless of which guitar and amp I play. I've owned probably every holy grail vintage guitar there is and most of the amps (except Marshalls - I hate Marshalls) and I just don't detect any tonal difference between them and what I use now. Yes, you can try for a tone based on genre, but I think the electronics has more to do with it than the instrument, new or old. Billy Gibbons sounds like himself whether he plays his LP or some odd Tele he's bolted together he's still the sound of ZZ Top. Maybe I don't hear the fine nuances of tone like some folks due to age and close proximity to artillery and mortar fire back in the day, but, I honestly don't think the audience does either - they can't tell the difference between a Fender 351 pick and one of those 1/8" thick, $50 ones that everyone raves about nowadays. Just sayin.....

[ugarte]

OTOH

would you rather pay $15K for a new luthier-built instrument (take your pick), or $8k on a Johnny Smith or even significantly less for something like a Guild AA.

Crazy expensive vintage L5s or Super 400s, or even D'Angelicos are one thing, but there is a sweet-spot for used instruments and then it becomes a discussion on what the definition of "vintage" is.

I know its hard to believe but 1980 was almost 40 years ago.

[jaco]

I was ready to make the vintage plunge (acoustic not arch top) after playing instruments from a friends impressive collection. He actually tried to talk me out of it due to the gamble involved. My friend knows vintage instruments, dealers, repairmen (TJ Thompson) and can afford to gamble. I gave up on the gamble and ordered a custom Grimes acoustic similar to Larry Coryell's which I had played previously. I'm sleeping better knowing the instrument will be 1st class all the way ready to last many years without any major expensive repairs. If I were to win the lottery though...

[coolvinny]

I've briefly owned a few old Gibsons and have played a few more of them for kicks. The best I can say is that some were better than some modern guitars...which really isn't saying much. I think that, overall, the boutique modern guitars were better than the vintage guitars but often that was because the newer ones were easier to play. I was quite impressed by an old L4C acoustic but not quite enough to pull the trigger; glad I held off as my new (to me) Trenier smokes it or at least my recollection of it.

[Doctor Jeff]

The other thing that I always think about these days is that the guys that made me want to play a big archtop weren't usually playing vintage guitars. Wes, Johnny Smith, Kenny Burrell...they all played fairly new instruments. The guitar sound on those albums (not the sound of the player and his hands) was always fairly new gear. Same (and maybe even more pronounced) with vintage amps...a vintage AC30 typically doesn't sound like a new handwired AC30, and the Beatles were always using new ones at the time.

That's a really good point. Most famous players started out on whatever they could afford--I think GB said his father handbuilt his first guitar...

But as soon as they could they went out and got the best NEW guitar and amp they could find.

The number of great players who cared about playing and/or collecting vintage at least early in their careers must be vanishingly small.

Of course Jack White, but he's an odd one, i'n't he?

[John A.]

OTOH

would you rather pay $15K for a new luthier-built instrument (take your pick), or $8k on a Johnny Smith or even significantly less for something like a Guild AA.

Crazy expensive vintage L5s or Super 400s, or even D'Angelicos are one thing, but there is a sweet-spot for used instruments and then it becomes a discussion on what the definition of "vintage" is.

I know its hard to believe but 1980 was almost 40 years ago.

Good point. To me, the whole subject slipped into farce when CBS Strats became "vintage." Yeah, those three bolt necks have so much mojo ... In any event, I'm a bottom feeder and am perfectly happy with the cheap stuff.

John

[Woody Sound]

Well I know we're mostly talking about "jazz guitars." But in 1986 I bought a new PRS Custom 24. Paul was just hitting the mainstream, the guitar was fully evolved, but had not yet become mass-produced. I mainly bought it because it was a great attempt to combine LP and Strat features. It NEVER crossed my mind that it would increase in value. Several years ago I saw how much an '86 C24 would go for, so I sold it for an insane figure. I immediately turned around and bought another used C24, same model, just a couple of years old, at a fraction of the '86s current price. If anything it feels better, more solid, definitely better pickup switching. I never had one moment of regret making the switch, best guitar move I ever made.

[cosmic gumbo]

I would never give up my 1942 es175.

[Litterick]

Twenty years ago, old guitars could be found for sale almost anywhere: junk shops, charity shops, village fetes. But then everyone connected to Internet and they found people who wanted to collect these old guitars, a generation of dentists and other professionals who had money and a longing to collect cool things. Now there are no old guitars, only vintage guitars and new guitars (which are often copies of old guitars, or made to look old). Any owner who is selling a guitar expects to make a profit, because the guitar is vintage. Even the new guitars come in special limited editions, which their owners think are valuable.

[rpjazzguitar]

There a way in which this is Ming Dynasty China plates.

Beautiful. Historically significant. Rare and they aren't making any more.

You can fall in love with it. Some will want to collect pieces and enjoy that process.

But, if you want to have a sandwich, you don't need to put it on a Ming plate.

[jzucker]

i guess I'll be the dissenter here. I've owned over 50 archtops including handmade ones by many of the drool-worthy boutique makers.

My '63 kessel and '89 175 are really incomparable. No new guitar (particularly gibson) comes close to the vibe, tone and feel of the older instruments. Unfortunately, the older instruments are inconsistent just like the new ones so there are no guarantees...

[Brian B]

.....Yes, you can try for a tone based on genre, but I think the electronics has more to do with it than the instrument, new or old. Billy Gibbons sounds like himself whether he plays his LP or some odd Tele he's bolted together he's still the sound of ZZ Top....

While I understand the analogy you're trying to make here, it's not the best one. Reverend Billy G runs thru a rack system literally designed to make every guitar he plays sound exactly like Pearly Gates. It could be a Tele, it could be a different '59 Les Paul...heck, it could be the Adam Levine model First Act.

Kirk Hammett of Metallica does the same, but with an entirely different sound goal. That's why so many fans of "Greeny" were absolutely destroyed when Kirk bought it and said he would tour with it. They were afraid he'd run it through his usual rig and it would sound like an ESP....

But I do get the point you were aiming for, and its valid...


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[jzucker]

but I think the electronics has more to do with it than the instrument, new or old. Billy Gibbons sounds like himself whether he plays his LP or some odd Tele he's bolted together he's still the

Not sure about that... I can hear it acoustically. In fact, my '63 kessel was completely gutted and the electronics were all replaced with new stuff and it still sounds like a 60 year old guitar.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

i guess I'll be the dissenter here. I've owned over 50 archtops including handmade ones by many of the drool-worthy boutique makers.

My '63 kessel and '89 175 are really incomparable. No new guitar (particularly gibson) comes close to the vibe, tone and feel of the older instruments. Unfortunately, the older instruments are inconsistent just like the new ones so there are no guarantees...

I do not think we disagree much. My 63 Kessel was a super guitar sound wise, but it had issues. My 47 ES 300 still is fine guitar with a great vintage vibe. The point of my original post is that I do no longer think that for me personally a vintage guitar is a better choice because I can do my trick equally well on any guitar. The differences are there yes, but for me they do not justify the enormous risk (sunken tops, neck resets) and investment (try selling one over here) of a vintage guitar anymore. I mean, I'd be lucky to score 50 bucks for a gig. I am not going to take a 10k guitar to a bar where nobody hears the difference anyway. Not sure I hear the difference in a live setting myself.

DB

[joe2758]

my 2013 175 is the best guitar i've ever played