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Played last night at a jazz jam that happens a couple times a month. It is held at a local music store and headed up by the owner. He is a solid jazz pianist.
There were two guitar players, myself and another guy I had never met. Usually I know everyone as I have been going the last couple of years and he keeps it to a small group of competent players.
The other guy brought a 1961 ES-335. Told us he paid 22k for it. I was floored that anyone would pay that much for a guitar and surprised anyone would take it out.
He played through a blues junior and it sounded very good. I had my Sadowsky Bruno and played through a Quilter/Blockdock 10. Quite frankly I did not think that the ES sounded 20k better than my Bruno although I know that is not the right way to look at a vintage instrument.
I think the vintage thing may be out of control.
Thoughts?
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05-04-2019 07:11 PM
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It's the PAF pickups, my friend. They drive Les Paul prices through the roof, during that same period.
Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 05-04-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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My thought is that the vintage fetish in guitars tends to be kind of silly. There are instruments that are truly outstanding and some that are meh; even among D'Angelico's there are some that are sublime and some that are just very good. Ditto vintage Gibson guitars. Wood is not a completely reliable material. But vintage instruments tend to be priced as if they are all wonderful instruments. For that matter, real PAF pickups are not all that reliable, either. They were wound to relatively sloppy specs ("yep, that bobbin looks full enough"), assembled, dumped in a large box and grabbed at random to install in any given instrument. The point was to "ship it, Melvin." Your odds of getting a fantastic pick up from one of the many highly skilled custom winders out there are better than your odds of getting in excellent vintage PAF- but, thanks to the vintage fetish, your Lollar is never going to fetch the dollars that a PAF well even though the Lollar is probably a better sounding pick up.
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Vintage is a marketing term, preferred to used because it sounds more desirable and thus expensive. But it just means old and used. Lots of people have more dollars than sense, and they make things more difficult for the saner people. And yes, IMO $22k is an insane price for a used guitar, any used guitar, but I'll bet it made him feel big, telling everyone how much he paid for it. Sort of like carrying a gun. It does make your equipment look larger, but only from a certain angle.
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I think we are all free to spend our money however we want. The player who brought the ES-335 was a solid player and my first impression was that he was a solid human being as well.
I just wonder why and how the market value of these older instruments has gotten to this point. There are wonderful new instruments being made especially here in the US. The vintage obsession that exists in the guitar world lacks solid ground based on the choices we have now. How the heck did we get here?
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$22K on a vintage 335 and he's happy playing through a Blues Junior?
Hmmm. Seems like he's got the front end covered, but no much so much on the back end . . .
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1961 was before the Beatles hit the USA Scene. Guitarists were uncommon and not very many guitars were made. After 1965 that all changed. So desirable electric guitars (Strats, Teles, Lesters. SG's and 335's ) made before 1965 will fetch big bucks. Supply and demand and all that.
If you got the coin and a vintage guitar floats your boat, more power to you.
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In my case, it's all about the history of the music, the historic artists who played them artists and the history of the guitar.
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I hear ya, but the PAF has driven upmarket pricing for some time. Not a recent event.
Originally Posted by Soccerpoodle
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Most guitarist including pros wouldn't spend that kind of money on any guitar, including archtop. Why when they make replicas that are just as good at 1/4 the cost.
I say this being old,enough to have had both vintage and replicas.
The magic dust fairies sure charge a lot for their hype!
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Well, at least he took it out to play with, instead of leaving it in a climatized cupboard on display for his golf playing dentist and lawyer buddies.
Was he a good player?
(Funny fact: in my culture - I’m Dutch - it is regarded very stupid for paying that much when you can get the same or almost the same thing for less. I must admit that attitude is changing a bit amongst the younger generations and the nouveau riche, but in general the Dutch still tend to maximize the value you get for money. Probably one of the reasons the vintage hype never really caught on over here.)
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If I'd kept my 1962 strat bought in 1970 for £90 I would be able to selll it today and buy 2 or 3 vintage L5s and still have change for a vintage 15" Vibroverb. If I wanted a exact copy of that same strat I could probably get one made for abour 3.000€.
Wanting a piece of rare iconic history and beiing able to pay it is what drives a lot of people to these purchases. I'm reassured that in the case of the original post the owner actually plays the guitar - not always the case.....
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Great point. Is it stupid to buy it for $22K if you can sell it later for $44K?
Probably, but you could do worse.
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The gentleman with the vintage 335 has an exceptionally desirable instrument. Should he decide to sell, a nice profit is likely. In the meantime, he gets to enjoy playing it (never underestimate the value of aged wood). I salute him for having the courage to play out with said instrument, giving others the chance to see and hear a classic in the flesh. I have always played out with my best instruments, which given my modest means was an economic risk. But if I cannot enjoy something for its intended function, why bother at all?
I say more power to him, and those like him.
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That’s a good point, but if that’s the intention you can’t take it out to play it: every scratch or dent will cost you $200! Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
;-)
But that’s why I admire the guy: he plays it! (As should be.)
And if you can afford it, heck why not.... But if you think how many lives could be saved or improved if you donate 22k to build a hospital in Africa or something..... well, let’s not go there.......
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I paid between 8.2K and 9.5K each for my vintage D'Angelicos (I have three). I worked hard/smart for the coin needed and enjoy the guitars quite a bit. And I (foolishly?) sometimes take them out on a gig (what is the point of having a great instrument if you cannot share it with the world and use it for its intended purpose?)
Now if the market price for a 1961 ES-335 is say 15K and a guy spends 22K, his purchase is subject to criticism as he clearly overpaid. But if he paid what the market bears, such criticism, IMO, borders outright jealousy.
Indeed, not every vintage guitar or PAF pickup is superb, but not knowing if the 1961 ES-335 (or its pickups) in question is superb or not, I would withhold judgment on the fellow's purchase.
The OP opined that compared to his rig (an Asian made guitar that some may also feel is overpriced), the 1961 ES-335 was not impressive enough to be worth the extra coin. To that, my response would be " if you feel that way, don't buy one".
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So my initial post was not about the player or how he chooses to spend his money.
I am not a collector. I was unware that a ES-335 would/could cost that much. It seems excessive to me but supply and demand dictate pricing in the US. I was just shocked and was wondering what the heck?
To each his own.....
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I did a gig with my Ibanez af120
the other day and someone chatting afterwards said
"that's a beautiful guitar you've got"
(i used dissagree and and say no it's a 200 quid Korean guitar)
now I just agree and say yeah thanks
ps I used to have a 63 335 with a PAF in the neck
and gig with it but this Ibanez works better for me
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Originally Posted by Soccerpoodle
This site is run by a merchant who is probably one of the (but certainly not the only) foremost experts on Gibson Semis, lots and lots of detail info and links to his for-sale inventory. A good place to gain wisdom on the current state of collectible 335s:
The Gibson ES-335
To me the funny thing is that often 345s and 355s for any given year (pre-Norlin), seem to sell for considerably less than a 335.
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That web site confirms that I have been living under a rock.
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Ya beat me to it. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
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I happen to have a '66 ES-335, only cause I got it long ago. It had a repaired headstock, was quite well played. So essentially just another guitar financially, before prices went berserk. The interesting part was that I tried several 335s at the same time. Newer ones, the late 60s, several early sixties 335s also. I ended up with the one that sounded best to me. It just happened to be the cheapest.
I guess the lesson there was that PAFs have a well deserved rep. But they are not any magic, surefire thing. Lots of variability guitar to guitar. And that other p/us that don't cost as much, or have the same rep, can be really good as well. And that not all vintage guitars are stellar. Still the luck of the draw, despite the prices.
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pretty much Originally Posted by Soccerpoodle
That web site confirms that I have been living under a rock.
The vintage Gibson market exploded in the late 90s, peaked around 2008/2009, came down during the crisis, and is climbing back. Other 50 Gibsons went along for the ride.
Around 2007 guys were listing 59 Les Pauls for over $300,000. Guys predicted $500,000
Those same guitars are now often listed at under $200,000 and we don't know what they really sell for but you get the idea.
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