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How many times have you picked up a guitar (or played through an amp) and then when you switch to another guitar (or amp) at first it sounded like it was lacking something. But then after playing the second guitar for a while and switched back to the first one, this time you found that the first one is lacking something that you got used to hearing from the second one.
The most typical example of this is if the first gear is warm and smooth and the second one is bright and clear. Second one at first sounds a bit harsh and lacks lows. When you go back to the first one this time it sounds muddy to you.
Our mind adapts to the sound we are hearing. It's like it internally adjusts the EQ to make what we hearing optimal. Then you switch to another gear, it sounds a bit off at first, but after a short while the mind re-adjust its EQ. Say it tunes-in to the highs a bit more, cuts a bit of the lows etc.
That's probably an evolutionary trait that configures our hearing so we are able to process aural cues (threats, food sources, cries of lost offsprings etc.) under various imperfect environmental conditions.
Another flaw is our implicit belief that we should have a innate preference for one gear over another, we just need to put in the time to make the right choice. But that's often not true.
What are your thoughts on this?Last edited by Tal_175; 03-11-2019 at 05:39 PM.
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03-11-2019 12:11 PM
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It's a spectral phenomenon. On one extreme, even when blinded, you can discriminate a vibraphone from an accordion easily. On the other extreme, you can fool yourself thinking that the same guitar played with different string gauges (or with different settings of tone and volume knobs) are different guitars. You could make that mistake even when the same guitar is played by another person (or vice versa, slightly different guitars played by the same person will be thought as the same guitar). By blinding, changing the order of testing and the environment, you can enhance your accuracy but there will be a ceiling effect and psychoacoustic illusions will always be there.
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I've had it happen, repeatedly, that the first notes I play on a gig sound terrible to me. Then, in the second set, the exact same thing sounds fine.
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We get used to hearing something, and expect to hear the same thing repeatedly. If I play a guitar for awhile, I get used to the sound, and think it's just what I like. Then I play another one and it doesn't sound so good, until I play it for awhile, and then it sounds better than the other one. It's a matter of familiarity, IMO, and we like what we're familiar with.
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Agree with all of this. I read somewhere once that the human timespan for "remembering a sound" is only like 8 seconds. So if it takes you longer than 8 seconds to switch guitars...lol
With pedals and amps it's easier, because you can switch almost instantly (especially with an A/B box or looper), and you really can tell the difference immediately. I have found that you can with guitars too, if they are guitars you've owned for a long time, already know the sound of "by heart", and then play them alot... meaning, spend 15 minutes with one, then 15 with the other, then 10/10, then 5/5, keeping track of your observations... you can get there.
BUT: none of this is a "better/worse" scenario. Just different. You may LIKE one better than another, which is of course fine, but they could also BOTH sound great, just different. I came to that conclusion a long time ago. While I do have a "#1 guitar" that I compare everything to, I'm not expecting other guitars to "beat it", it's just that #1 I know like the back of my hand, and it gives me a solid base to compare others to.
This is why people have more than 1 guitar, 1 amp, 1 pedal. Just different varieties of great. That's where I'm at now- trying to weed out the "merely good" from the "great"- at 49, as much fun as I've had trying out so many different guitars and pedals (not so much amps... yet), I'm looking for "the keepers" so I can then move on and do this same fun journey with amps. But I've only got so much $$$, so I can't do everything at once LOL.
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Another factor if you play at anything over modest volume is your ears fatigue from the volume and your ability to hear highs drop off.
You compensate with EQ trying to get that sound and it gets worse. Next day you plug into the amp with the settings unchanged but your ears rested and holy cow, what happened to my tone?
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psychoacoustic illusions is probably the most significant factor when dealing with guitars, amps, speakers, etc. Particularly speakers. I don't know how many times I've played through a cab and didn't like the sound but after a couple weeks it sounded fine. Then, i switch to a different cab for a week and come back to the original. What I originally perceived as the speaker breaking in was actually psychoacoustics. Your aural taste-buds get used to the sound and normalize it.
IMO, 99% of the time when folks talk about speaker break-in it's really just psychoacoustics.
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I have three amps, and my preference keeps changing. I play one for a few weeks, and then I start to dislike the sound, and change to a different amp. The cycle keeps cyclilng. I used to change guitars a lot, but since I got my latest Wu, I've stayed with it. I keep trying other guitars, but I keep coming back to the Wu. Maybe I've finally found the guitar I've been looking for all my life. But don't hold me to that forever.
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Hugely and absolutely true.
Originally Posted by jzucker
But now we need to disregard all the platitudes that are so often embraced regarding guitar sound.
For example: “nothing sounds like a Gibson”.
This quickly (and as illustrated in this forum) becomes: “nothing sounds like a Gibson, except pretty much anything else even remotely similar once we do a little blind testing”.
Grab a Wu, and Epi (and Epi Elite) Broadway, and a notable number of other archtops with humbuckers. Now grab a set of T-I JS-112 and an assortment of picks. See how the blind test goes.
Psycho.
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This. Originally Posted by Lobomov
I put my Super 400 up for sale.
A guy came over and played it in my living room and the tone was (IMO) to die for. He founds the size of the guitar (18 inch lower bout) off putting (Lucky me!) and passed on the purchase. As soon as he left, I deleted my ad on this forum and my local Craigslist.
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Atta boy, Stringswinger. The Super 400 is just about the finest sounding guitar ever built. I can still hear the first one I ever played, I swear it...nearly ruined me for any other guitar.
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There are also differences in the short-term and long-term preferences. When I was buying my first expensive flat-top, I A/B'ed mahogany and rosewood (back and sides) guitars. In the stores rosewood guitars always sounded better. Their sounds were rich and complex whereas mahogany guitars were dull and dry in comparison. So I bought a rosewood guitar. Some time down the line I also bought a mahogany guitar. I now actually prefer mahogany guitars. I find that rosewood's richness gets in the way too much. Mahogany allows you to make the music shine with your playing. That's my opinion.
Last edited by Tal_175; 03-13-2019 at 08:20 AM.
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nah, speaker break-in is a real and functional thing. The looser (more broken in) a surround gets, the more speaker cone movement there is. It's not rocket science. The effect may be subtle, but it's definitely there. Originally Posted by jzucker
Have a 2x12 cab with 2 identical speakers in it, well-used. Replace ONE with a brand-new same-version speaker. Mic them both. There's a difference. Enough that Weber used to (might still?) offer break-in service on their speakers.
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Psychoacoustics is also real and functional and they are not mutually exclusive. For instance, psychoacoustics can kick in earlier than actual speaker break-in or enhance the perception of change so it is not as subtle. There will be some difference among unused speakers of the same speaker model as a result of manufacturing inconsistencies or batch variances also. Originally Posted by ruger9
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To the original question:
Not if its done correctly. . .but that probably doesn't have anything to do with making an individual choice or finding a preference between two pieces of sonic equipment.
Recently I've been feeling like I can't tell what an electric archtop really sounds like unless I hear someone else play it across the room or I'm listening to the amp through isolating headphones.
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Not disagreeing with that for sure! I think psychoacoustics play a HUGE role in gear these days... (I love reading people describing/arguing the differences between TS9-based OD pedals, and klons and klones LOL), and the changing/searching/acquisition/selling of. I was just saying speaker break-in is NOT psychoacoustic, while someone's perception of it may be at some time, it actually is a real thing (sorry if I wasn't clear on that) Originally Posted by medblues
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To this, and also to the psychoacoustic phenomenon we've been discussing... Originally Posted by ugarte
I (my head) thinks I sound different when I look up at the reflection of myself playing in the patio door glass (no I'm not kidding!)... between looking at my gear or my hands while playing, and looking at my reflection, I hear a difference. Psychoacoustics indeed!
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The principle is called habituation; it goes all the way back to the diminishing of response of single cells to repeated irritation.
I was reading one day and saw a tiny spider on the wall. I tapped the wall and he moved away. Subsequent taps yielded lesser movements until he just ignored me. After a cup of coffee (me, not the spider) I tapped again and we started the whole thing anew.
Same principle is behind the illusions of when you stare at a green light and see a red dot when you look away, or when you ride a bike and when you stop it looks like the clouds are moving away from you.
Same thing when you don't notice how your house smells until you have been out for a bit and come home.
Basically, new things are interesting until they aren't new anymore, then no longer important... helps minimize unimportant distractions.
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Well that would certainly explain the high divorce rate LOL Originally Posted by pauln
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i didn't say it wasn't a real thing. I just mean that peoples' claims about the HUGE difference is extremely over-hyped. My celestion G12H-75 creambacks sound pretty much the same 150+ hours and several loud jams later. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Playing one instrument after another without any sort of blind/control isn't a test, period.
John
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Discrimination testing is a technique employed in sensory analysis to determine whether there is a detectable difference among two or more products.... Since auditory tests and many other sensory tests rely on short-term memory, which only lasts a few seconds, it is critical that the test fixture allows the subject to identify short segments that can be compared quickly. Pops and glitches in switching apparatus likewise must be eliminated, as they may dominate or otherwise interfere with the stimuli being tested in what is stored in the subject's short-term memory ..
Discrimination testing - Wikipedia
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Playing amplified you’re subject to temporary threshold shift, or TTS. Exposure to sound results in a significant shift in hearing sensitivity, and it’s not constant across the frequency spectrum. There’s a wide range in how sensitive people are to this phenomenon, and how long it takes to recover.
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I’ve also found that A/B comparisons where you aren’t allowed to make EQ adjustments have limitations. While it’s interesting and useful to compare the sound of two guitars or two speakers through the same amp with the same EQ settings, or to compare two amps with the same tone control settings, if I’m trying to decide which one to take home I’d want to adjust the EQ to find the sweet spot for each guitar, amp, speaker combination. I’d also want to experiment with various combinations of eq settings on guitar and amp and speaker placement to see if it seems versatile enough to dial in the tones I want for a variety of playing situations or types of music.
Of course, A/B comparisons are useful for making preliminary assessments.
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Everyone has had days like that. Originally Posted by pauln
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