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Salutations,
I did try exhaustively searching to find answers to these very questions on this forum, but could not find them fully answered - apologies for the redundancy if they have been answered already. I am currently modifying my H-150, possibly doing more work on it than many would do to an already sweet-sounding machine, but done in the interest of 'going the distance' to fuel a blooming obsession and deepening emotional commitment to the guitar. I have already decided that this is the sole guitar I will ever play, until it breaks, I've had it for a number of years already, and I love it warmly. But I am also aware that possessing a guitar will only get me so far, and so I do grasp the necessity of actually playing it frequently! It's actually nothing too special, it's got a huge ding in the back of the neck and many other dings and scratches and a bit of a cloudy finish or whatever. I just like it.
I have read here that heavy gauge strings are somewhat the standard for jazz playing, though I suppose that that is usually prescribed for archtops; and while a solid body Heritage/Les Paul guitar is technically an archtop, there are vast differences between a solid body and the archtops folks normally think of, as you all know. My question I suppose is essentially a safety issue: will the neck and/or any other part of the guitar be in danger if I put these 14 gauge strings on this type of guitar? If anyone is unsure, the specs on the Heritage are roughly the same as a Les Paul including scale length. I have put these heavy strings on already and love how they play, and I've decided on these 14's in order to accommodate a "finger plucking" style, which I hope will evolve into a "finger-picking" style, if my nails ever grow strong enough! (I'll settle for plucking if this fails though~) I'm new at it all; Jazz, guitar itself, daring to call myself an aspiring pro-musician - I'm a seedling here, and as such, bound to say dumb things at first.
I am using the four wound strings on a George Benson flatwound set and the high E and B strings from an Elixer Nanoweb set. Does anyone know the answer, regarding these "brighter" Nano's, (described by Elixer as 'brighter' compared to another type it produces, Elixer Polyweb's); can any given plain steel string enjoy a tonal "brightness" or "warmness", or is "steel just steel"? Are the tonal characteristics 'bright' and 'warm' applied solely to the wound strings?. These are my questions then I guess: Am I going to snap the neck off or damage it with these heavy strings? Are Nanoweb plain strings as 'brightness-neutral' as any other plain string (I'd like the E and B strings to be as 'non-bright' if possible, as un-jazzmanlike as that may sound. I have a brightness problem with the rest of my setup, and I'd seek out Poly's in 12 gauge if I thought they might be darker than the Nano's.)? One final question I'll throw in is this: Will the use of the two treble strings in the lighter gauge of 12's from the Elixer set mixed with the bass strings from a heavier 14's set from Thomastik potentially cause a lateral warp (twist) in the neck due to uneven tension?
Any and all partial or complete answers are appreciated, info is power and I'd like to be informed and decided on these string gauge conundrums since I am anticipating a major setup adjustment at the old luthier. Thanks, and "Feel the Rhythm!".
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01-25-2019 05:10 AM
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I love this discussion.
First, heavy strings are safe. 14s might even be considered mediums in some circles. Some have been concerned about the effect on the sound board over time. That's not a concern with a solid body.
Personally I don't worry about the unwound strings. They may not last as long as the others. In fact, Labella gives you two of each in anticipation of an early death. The high E and B strings are pretty cheap to replace when you buy them at JustStrings or a similar outlet. The coated strings should last longer than the uncoated, but I've never bothered to buy a full set of coated (Nanos, Polys) just to use the high strings.
The advantage of the use of fat strings on a solid body is the energy transfer to the pickup. There is much more mass vibrating in the magnetic field with a 56 vs a 46 string. There is also more energy moving down the neck and across the top, but I don't know if that matters much.
Les Pauls are primarily associated with rock and blues. Heavy strings don't bend well. Further, with overdrive and distortion, I doubt the heavy strings make much difference except a less crisp attack. Consider that Jimmy Page recorded and gigged with very light strings (I heard his high E was an 8), and he created just awesome, dominating sounds.
Good luck and have fun.
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if it was me in your shoes ...
i would just go for it ...
just keep half an eye on the
neck bow/ truss rod adjustment
after the changes
ive been told that all plain strings
are made of the same steel
also give the big guage TI
plain strings a go ,
you may find you dig them
they give a lot of weight to your
melody lines ...
generally speaking TIs are not
high tension ...
go for it ... let us know how it goes
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Are you looking for a warmer sound? You can replace the tune-o-matic with a solid wooden saddle. Makes a big difference on a semi or solid. From my own experience, more than on an archtop.
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Thomastiks tend to be a bit lighter than competitor's sets. For example, if you wanted a Thomastik set equivalent to a Daddario 12 gauge set, you'd buy the Thomastik 13. I think the same applies to their 14 gauge set, so you would essentially be playing a Daddario 13.
I would have no concerns using the 14, especially since Les Pauls have the shorter scale which imparts less tension on the neck than the longer 25 1/2" scale.
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Great post there NT.
Plain strings are overwhelmingly similar to each other. Whether coated in tin, brass (TI), or nano-something, the significant characteristic is the iron/carbon steel.
If you feel a difference in playing one type of coating over another, then surely enjoy your coating of preference.
Wound strings, on the other hand, exhibit an often extreme difference in feel and sound.
(Incredibly, while people talk about headstock angle, paper-in-oil capacitors, top-wrapped stop tailpieces, and other faith-based guitar lore, the remarkable transition from one’s wound to one’s plain strings is ignored.)
Back to your great post:
Yes, the differential stress on the neck is an actual issue in principle. And there are rare guitars that have two truss rods to try (with some actual success) to steer the neck and compensate for this.
But in practice, the real-world effect is extremely limited, and moreover often works in the player’s favor. A slightly greater relief on the bass side of the neck suits most players very well in dealing with the way that A string can buzz in lower positions.
In my opinion, load that bad boy up with your strings of preference. Even a very basic, single action truss rod will have no problem with the overall tension so long as it is in working order. If you have actual issues with differential tension, it will be slight, and correctable with a little careful fret dressing to compensate.
Make sure your luthier-of-choice is well versed in setting up the nut for the string gauges you prefer. Binding in the nut (sounds like the downside of tighty-whiteys) is a major problem for tuning and stability when doing emotive bends, if that is part of your playing style.
A well-cut nut is extremely important.
All in all: yes, mount the strings you prefer, just make sure there is a VERY competent nut setup done, and get that truss rod adjusted and checked a few days later as well. (You can do this yourself.)
************
Oh, and hi Klatu. Hope all is great with you. Happy 2019. My son in law is also a serious historian (with a majorly superb wife, which makes three of us) so you need to suffer a little consequential support from me.
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Much gratitude for the complete and informed responses, everyone! It is always nice when folks on a forum show what seems to be a genuine desire to be of help, and answer in a careful and thoughtful way to what is being asked.
I have held on to the Thomastik E and B strings, so if these Elixers break, I'll have them in reserve. But a good case has now been made to forego the Elixers altogether and just use the complete Thomastik set, and get replacement non-TI single strings if needed (I am aware TI's aren't sold individually) during the overall life of the set. I must say that that latter method adheres better to the K.I.S.S. rule. In the first place, I only sought out different E and B strings when I first discovered my "brightness problem", thinking the culprit was a possible 'high-volume style' used by Thommy on their two plain strings. This proved not to be the case, as the problem persisted with different gauges and brands, and I think what is actually happening is that the B pole piece on one or both of my humbuckers is producing too much output. Possibly the B string's vibration field is wandering over to neighboring polepieces (the pole pieces are not lined up underneath the strings in ideal symmetry). Or else the pickups were wound inexactly, or perhaps it is due to the phenomenon sometimes experienced when modern pickups are used with wound G's though they are tuned to sets of strings with plain G strings - I have heard that such modern calibration renders the B way too loud in relation to its neighbors when a wound G is used.
In any case, I've ordered custom pickups at Seymour Duncan as part of this overhaul, something I had decided on, ordered and paid for about a week or so ago, and I hope to have this pole piece aspect of things rectified that way and then be free to use any set of strings I like. I hope that doesn't sound extravagant, it was within the budget (good old tax refund to the rescue!).
As far as the neck twist I asked about, I am glad to hear it is of little concern, perhaps even could be considered a boon. I do appreciate all of your folks' command of all these technical subjects.
Lastly I will mention that the Elixer's E and B strings were chosen based on research here: many users of TI strings prefer them for their anti-rust properties, and dislike TI's E and B for whatever reasons (this is common I have found). The plain steels are NOT coated on these Elixer sets, and I think others, like me, are not interested in the coated strings, yet are forced to buy the whole set to get at the uncoated, anti-rust plain strings. But as I said, I will probably simplify and go back to the complete TI set. Mostly I am of course relieved to hear that 14's, especially lighter-feeling TI 14's, on a short scale length to boot, are not an issue at all. If they are considered medium in some circles, I've got my work cut out for me! Also just for the info, the style I play in IS a jazz-rooted style and I eschew the Les Paul's typical blues-rock functionality. And what is relevant here is that I'm shooting for a pretty traditional jazz tone, pretty distortion-free most of the time - even if my grasp of the jazz technique is completely approximated and "faked".
Thank you all so much once again, and if any new comments are posted, I'll be glad to see how others might weigh in. Peace, y'all... and remember: "Feel the Rhythm!".
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I have used Les Paul's with heavy flatwounds (12's and 13's) for jazz over the last 40 years with no problems. When the Les Paul was created, 12's were considered light strings. The guitar was engineered for heavier strings. The 13's that I used back in the late 70's on my Les Paul were probably a pretty close match to the gauge on the wound strings on a modern TI set of 14's. I now use TI 12's on my current Les Paul and it sounds great for jazz playing (I mostly use it for solo outdoor gigs).
Go for it and enjoy!
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I currently have TI Swing 12s on my Les Paul, could go heavier if desired.
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To clarify the opinion on tension differential:
- Yes it is a real thing.
- It is very very rarely an actual problem.
- The typical T-I Swing/BeBop set has a more balanced tension vs. the traditional gauge selections of most manufacturers.
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Former H150 owner here. I had a set of D'Addario Chrome 13s on that guitar for months and even replaced the top with a 14 at some time. Just a tweak of the truss rod, and that was it. 14 gauge TIs probably have less overall tension than the Chromes and regarding any possible neck issues arising from an imbalance in tension between the top and bottom strings, don't think so: jazz players regularly sub the top two strings in an otherwise "light" set for (far) heavier gauges and I've never heard anyone saying "hey, that light top, heavy bottom rock 'n roll set screwed my Strat's neck".
Major setup? Maybe widen the nut slots a tad as necessary ...
I have no idea what you're talking about regarding string volume imbalance - that's what the pole pieces are for. If you have Schaller humbuckers on there, I would also not change them out - sweet pups, IMO/E.
Anyway, the H150 is a toughie and a great guitar and the only reason I no longer have one is that it just became too uncomfortable to play sitting down and I evetually got fed up having to use a strap to counteract this.
Take it easy.
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Interesting! Have you done this on a Les Paul (-type) guitar?
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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This thread is interesting ....
Let us know how it turns out.
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Thanks to all again. Peter C: the imbalance in string volume is not corrected by pole piece height adjustment as it ought to. I have 'dunked' the B string pole pieces slightly below the surface of the metal plate, as low as I dared to go so as not to damage anything, leaving the others protruding almost excessively outward from that plate - and STILL the volume imbalance persists. That is the reason I suspect those other factors may be at play with the pickups. All those theories I proposed about the cause, incidentally, were gathered from elsewhere on this site and I suppose a few other sites as well in topic threads dealing with that specific issue. I believe such phenomena have occurred to others. The only possible alternative explanation I can think of is that my distortion pedal (which I set on a drastically mild distortion setting, but which has other parameters that I value to create a lovely vintage tone) may be the culprit. Perhaps the pedal is exacerbating an otherwise minor volume difference in the various strings, and the B played through it just somehow is the one that ends up screaming out in pain when I pluck too hard. Maybe a different pedal would be the cheaper cure if it is indeed the culprit! I will do the test, by playing through a different but similar pedal, I owe it to myself to get to the bottom of it. And meanwhile I have asked Seymour Duncan to hold my order and give me an opportunity to rewrite my requests for the custom pickup order, all so that I might be more certain about my initial request for them to tone down the individual B pole piece outputs in relation to the other pole piece outputs (if that's even possible when building a pickup). That was previously the only solution I could think of, which warranted replacing the pickups in the first place (I am really struggling to accept the string volume problem!), but I am getting a feeling that I might be barking up the wrong tree on the issue. I suppose there might be some who would gently suggest I modify my playing technique to adjust for the problem that more obvious way. If anyone happens to understand this stuff in depth, please let me know - I'm pulling out my hair on this particular issue still... But as I have said, my initial questions from the beginning of the thread are answered and I'm grateful that so many responded affirmatively. Peace.... and "Feel the Rhythm"~
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I should also add that the nut-slot widening idea is duly noted, though I intended to have that done already which is part of why I wanted to know which gauge strings I was going to be needing - a full nut replacement is part of the overhaul. I accidentally, though only slightly, ruined the existing nut, deepening the slots a tad too much, while trying to undertake the task myself a couple of months ago in an over-zealous error in judgement. Lesson learned.
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NT,
Purely as a test of the situation, completely remove the B string pole screws. I mean take them out and put them in another room.
I do not suggest this as a solution, but it could prove extremely clarifying as a test regarding your situation.
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Everyone overdoes slotting starting out.
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Weird. What pickups have you got on there? SDs, Schallers ...?
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The B string is always louder than the others. I run my treble E way out, the B way down, and the G way out, then the other strings to match, with the low E usually way down also, depending on the string type. I usually use pure nickel strings, somewhere in between steel and bronze for magnetic response. You'll probably need to adjust the 3 treble strings more than you think necessary from just looking, in order to get a proper balance. The polepieces can go way down in most, but not all, pickups. On my Rhythm Chief 1100 they don't go very deep, still above the case, but on an SD Benedetto or most Gibson pickups they will safely go well down into the pickup. As PTchris said, removing the B polepiece entirely should give some help. It's not dangerous, it's just a screw, and it's easy enough to replace it in the pickup.
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Just to keep anyone from wigging out here...
I am suggesting completely removing the B pole screw not as a fix, but to simply see what the OP gets for string balance after doing so.
It is easy, reversible, and potentially very illustrative of his situation.
For example, if one were later to order custom PU’s this could be very interesting info.
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Checking in here after a pretty thorough test, minus the pole piece removal idea. I will be sure to do that test before ordering the custom pickups though, as I can see how it would shed illumination in that venture. So I borrowed my wife's guitar pedal which has a similarly mild distortion feel and which would be useful to test my own pedal against to see if my pedal was exacerbating and amplifying an otherwise mild problem. And I also toggled between two amps, the one I usually use and another, cleaner amp with less 'chowda' overall - to see if the amp might have been responsible for any volume-differential exacerbation. I found that just by going back and forth from the various setups, I was able to better home in on and become better satisfied with new corrections in pole piece adjustment, and the multi-amp multi-pedal test revealed how to best position the various and annoyingly volatile tone knobs on my pedal (the amp is a DIY, though not built by me, and has no tone knobs of any kind to adjust - just volume!).
So to sum that set of tests up: the B and E both were louder in relation to the wound strings, in all circumstances - BUT by involving the comparison equipment to make adjustments, the loudness issue was brought closer to nominal. So I suppose that inspired me to issue a small apology to Peter C. if I sounded snarky or defensive responding to that post. Not only was Peter C.'s ultimate advice of "Take it Easy" a welcome and astute response to my growing hysteria on these subjects, and I say that earnestly, but the declaration 'that's what pole pieces are for" has turned out to make good sense after all. Pole piece adjustment seemed to nearly eliminate this problem I'm having, in combination with tone knob adjustments made in comparison with other equipment.
However, the B and E strings are still just a tad too loud and shrill in an overall way, though of course that might be due to their plain steel composition. If the plain steel composition is the culprit, I think playing technique adjustment might emerge as the only solution. The reason I say this is that no matter what I request from Duncan for tone requests, they might end up delivering a final product with a dead sounding treble presence, which would be the failure-scenario in the delicate balancing act I'm asking them to perform with my order. In a pinch I might be left with my current pickups swapped back to my own rig for the long haul, even if I do order the custom ones....my wife might inherit the customs for her guitar in the end if the originals sounded better on my rig than the new ones will. And so adjusting playing technique would be the only way. (Hmmm, you mean 'play more guitar, Nicky?')....
So to wrap up, I'll do the pole piece removal test, both treble E and B, to see what happens there. And I'll give ole Seymour Duncan a call on Monday to ask what gives on my order. Also, I must say that the encouragement by you folks to feel a sense of latitude in how far down I can safely 'dunk' a pole piece is reassuring in a big way.
If I admitted that the pickups I have now are already a set of Duncan's, would you think I was mad to change them out? There are three pervading reasons to go ahead with my order:
1) I'll be giving these pups that I have now to my wife for her Les Paul that's got lousy pups, so no waste there.
2) I'd like to see if I can muster the language skills to get a clear request to the Custom shop to tone down the E and B without killing the treble 'presence', and I feel it's worth the admittedly expensive gamble.
3) I believe the current pickups I have are simple '59's, relatively entry-level Duncan's, but with antiqued plates, judging from the plates themselves and the "'59's" print written on the underside of them. I do not think that they are the stock pups which Duncan offers which are closer to the price I'd pay for the custom ones, (which incidentally bear a description of a tone closer to what I want), that are called "Signature Vintage antiqued" or something like that. While the antiqued, distressed top plate on mine resembles these so-called Signature pups, there was no signature or anything like that on the underside. I guess what I'm saying is that if I get the customs, I can request all of what I feel is good about '59's, Pearly Gates pups, and the Signatures I'm referring to - things like getting them wax-unpotted for example, and asking for a crisper midrange presence than typical '59's- and with good conscience pass along the current pickups to my wife for whom the minor string volume differential will surely not matter in the context of the more indie-rock manner she plays in. Feel the Rhythm.
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Took out both pole pieces. It was difficult to tell if there was a volume change at all, but if there was, the E and B volumes were nearly-equalized to the wound strings with the E and B pole pieces removed. Was there a change at all, or did I imagine it? How is any sound at all so clearly being picked up if the pole pieces are gone? What could this possibly mean? Please inform....
Feel the Rhythm
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The next step is to adjust the pickup height. If the two unwound strings are too loud, lower that end of the pickup, and raise the bass end if necessary. Pickup heights are easily adjustable with a screwdriver, either end or both.
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There is still a significant magnetic field where the E and B are vibrating over the coil with the pole screws. Originally Posted by Nicky T
If you think about how the field looks coming from the fixed pole ends ( I mean the so-called “slugs”, which are still there for the E and B strings) you will see how it still passes through both coils.
The will definitely have been a change in two ways. The overall amplitude from the B and E will be reduced, and the sound from both strings will be notably thinner.
As for what this all means to humanity, I am more curious about your impression after some real playing than my own existing opinion.
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Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
Interesting! I actually DID notice a thinness present with the pole pieces removed, but declined to include that description of what I heard in my recent response, not sure why I didn't include that actually. Yes indeed, I did hear a kind of distorted thinness that wasn't there before. AND I would say that the volume problem at that point was eliminated. But as at least one person has said, the E and B are always louder, presumably that means with the poles in place, driven in deeply as they may be.
Also, I was already aware of the screws which lift and lower the pickup's left and right sides, these I had adjusted along with the poles and finally got things manageable!
I think moving forward, I have justified at least to myself a desire, if not a need, to upgrade the pickups, one of the main drives being a wish to try out pups with no wax potting. That being said I will exercise due caution in trying to ask the custom shop to tone down the E and B poles - I think results would be best if I just ask for an overall EQ which provides a very gentle mid scoop and an even more slight treble increase. I think this is the EQ profile that will get me closest to what I'm looking for tonally. Wish me luck, and please know that I remain in gratitude to folks' patience with my rambling updates, who have guided me along for the ride in this thread. Peace, and Feel the Rhythm!!!!
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