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I have been travelling down this road since the late 1960s. The Twin Reverb is the gold standard...but it is very heavy, large, and loud.
In the mid-70s I moved to the Pro Reverb. Half the power of the TR, still 2x12, still lots of dispersion of sound, and the same Fender tone stack. It's the Twin Reverb without having been put into a gym training regimen. Great amp--and, not that unreasonable in the second-hand market when compared to Deluxe Reverb amps and Vibroluxes.
Then, I moved to the Deluxe Reverb in the 90s, after a decade of nothing but Polytone (the 80s). The Deluxe Reverb is a great amp. It sounds fine for jazz. It isn't as loud as either the PR or the TR...and it doesn't weigh as much as either.
For the last decade, though, I have been using the old, Tweed Fender Deluxe amp (with an outboard reverb unit). The Deluxe still has the 12" speaker (a Jensen, like all of the above amps--although the bigger ones also boast Oxford speakers or Utah speakers). The Deluxe is quite light compared to even the DR. The main thing, though, is that it sounds like a million bucks for jazz. ALL of the great jazz guitarists recorded with it--from Wes Montgomery, to Grant Green, to George Benson, to etc.
If I were 25, I would still be using the Twin Reverb. Now, however, I will use the Tweed Deluxe.
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10-09-2015 05:08 PM
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If you have the scratch a Tone King Imperial sounds like a old DR. I had Mark Bartel custom build me one with max headroom for jazz. It was only $150 more for the custom mods. Also way lighter than a DR. Pricey though, more than $2K but top notch build quality.
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I've been reviewing old threads that asked what amps out there could serve basically as a smaller version of a Fender Twin Reverb. Generally, tube amps with 6L6 power amps, about 40 watts, 1 speaker (10/12") built in reverb and (gasp?) maybe tremolo.
I saw no resolution on those threads, and today came across the specs for the Fender Vibroverb Reissue, which sure sounds like smaller Twin of mythic questing lore.
I still think this is a useful question: are there tube amps in the 25-25 watt range out there, with one speaker, that are in the tonal territory of the Twin Reverb? That don't cost $3000?
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I think the Carr Rambler has a very "American/Fullerton" sound with it's 2-6L6 power tubes & 14/28 watt power settings. They've been around for years so they can be found easily on the used market.
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Music Man 112?
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Lawson, the answer (to paraphrase President Clinton) is, "It all depends what your definition of 'like' is like."
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
What makes The Twin Sound? It depends on the hearer.
Some folks say you need two speakers
Some folks say you need 4x 6L6 = 80-100 Watts
Some folks say you need diode rectification
Some folks say you need a midrange control
Those folks say that The Twin Sound is about moving plenty of air with extra mids and enormous clean headroom.
For those folks, no, there's no 25-40W single-speaker scoop-mid 6V6 amp that sounds "like" a Twin.
Some folks say that any tube amp played clean sounds "like" a Twin.
For those folks, a Princeton or a Peavey Classic 30 does the trick as long as you don't crank it too loud.
Obviously, both camps are correct.
My observation is that gearheads (like myself) make giant mountains out of modest anthills.
Further your correspondent sayeth naught.
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For me a big part of the Fender Twin sound/feel is having two speakers... twin speakers fill the stage in a totally different way to single speakers.
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marsh makes a hand made vibrolux clone for under $1600. Jay Wolfe carries them. Terrible demo here but you get the idea...
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The two speaker thing is really true, and I find the same when trying to get anything to sound like Super Reverb...no sub for four speakers (4x10 to be even more specific). Never tried an extension cab on the Hot Rod...maybe if I have nothing to do I'll haul it out of the basement and see.
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I was also going to say Fender Vibrolux. Great amps.
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Never liked those. Seems like they got it backwards. You don't want a SS preamp and tube poweramp. Where's the savings in that? Fuchs and several other jazz amp makers are making a fender tube preamp and class D power amp and they sound great! Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Musicman also runs the power tubes at more than 100V hotter than fender which contributes to tube failure and makes the amp brittle IMO...
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I agree. Musicman amps look good - I had 3 in the 80s/90s- but some of them ran the power tubes @ 700v, but biased very cold, with little standing current and biased close to class B ( far away from class A) . In English, this means they sounded brittle and cold, and put out less punch than you'd have expected. I had a tattered old 25w (?) tweed super around the same time, that was actually louder and juicier. Shame, they looked very sharp, but took a wrong turn in the power race. A look at the archived Music Man forum will tell you how difficult it is to get tubes these days that will take 700 volts on the plates. Originally Posted by jzucker
It may be 'heresy', but IMO modern class D power amps can sound far better..
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Lawson,
I have owned every Fender amp from Champ to Showman in the blackface and silverface lineups...except the Vibrosonic. IME, the most like the Twin Reverb in the mid-power amps is the Pro Reverb. It really is a junior Twin.
In the mid-70s I used the Pro Reverb extensively. If anything, I liked it better than the TR.
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If you're talking strictly Fenders and clones of Fenders, not exactly, but sort of. Blackface and many silverface variants of a bunch of different Fender amps are the same basic preamp mated to different output sections and/or different speaker configurations. Plus, some of these have solid state rectifiers like the Twin, and some have tube rectifiers. So at relatively low/clean volumes there's a fundamentally similar character to the sound (except for speaker differences) of all the BF and many SF reverb combos, but the louder you turn up, the more the differences assert themselves. Also, Fender amps with 2x6l6 tubes are 35-ish watts and up. 2x6v6 Fenders get you up to 22-25-ish. So strictly speaking, there is not a 1-speaker 2 x 6l6 Fender with 20-25 watts. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The closest to that is a Deluxe Reverb, which is 2x6v6, 22-ish watts and 1 x 12". With the volume on 2 or 3, it's very similar sounding to a Twin on 2 or 3 (depending on tone settings). But turn it up, and it's quite different. A DR's volume pretty much tops out at 4-5, and it just just gets more and more overdriven, whereas a Twin stays clean and keeps getting louder almost all the way up the dial. You can put 6l6's into a DR and re-bias it, and it will be a bit cleaner and more Twin-like in terms of clean headroom. So that would be my answer to your question.
Beyond Fender and exact clones, there's an almost infinite variety of boutique amp builders making BF/SF-based amps with different features and power levels. So people do make 25-watt 2 x 6l6 single speaker BF/SF-like amps. Check out Allen Amplification - Quality Tube Guitar Amps, Kit, Parts, and Repairs, for example.
John
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The old timers used to tell me that a non-reverb Princeton with a JBL is a "half Twin". Certainly there are differences (tube rectification, a 10 instead of two 12's, 6v6 vs. 6L6 and reverb). But the tone is pretty close (the headroom sure isn't!). Add an external reverb and you are getting to where you may want to be.
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More than two years ago I bought a FUCHS modded Music Man HD112 65/130. It had the Music Man classic as the donor and an old Ampeg cabinet. Amazing amp - problem was even at half power (65) the thing was too loud for condo living. I gave it to my chiropractor who does house calls - kid not long out of med school trying to pay off his loans and somehow be in a band. It's loud as F and just right for his gigs...
Big
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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I think the Bandmaster Reverb head has the same amp as a Pro Reverb. You could mate that to the speaker cabinet of your choice. It wants two 8-ohm speakers or one 4-ohm.
1968-1980 "Silver Face" Bandmaster Reverb
They are often put in custom combo cabinets like this one.
More info:
A Little Love for the Fender Bandmaster Reverb | Warehouse Guitar SpeakersLast edited by KirkP; 01-09-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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Personally, I would get a '70-'71 silverface Pro Reverb. No significant differences from the blackface circuit and having played both I can tell you it is an excellent amp.
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The pro reverb and bandmaster are different amps. The bandmaster uses less plate voltage on the 6L6s and both have smaller output transformers giving you more saturation (less headroom). Some folks like that sound, some don't. If you compare a super reverb or '64 vibroverb output transformer with a pro or bandmaster you'll see they are 2x the size.
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This is what never made any kind of sense to me. A guy will go out and spend thousands on a L5 and buy a Blue Jr. to plug it into.
That is like putting recap tires on a Porsche. IMO spending less than $1K on a amp is a waste of money unless you can only afford cheap. A great guitar deserves a great amp.
As far as a Twin goes nothing sounds like a Twin except another Twin. You can get close but no cigar. I can get close with my Henriksen 312 but only close. I love my H until I plug into my Twin. The Twin is the King of amp tone IMO like the L5 is king of archtops. Yes they are heavy. Eat some Wheaties and Spinach. I do admit mine never leaves the house.
No substitution for cubic inches.
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I will agree that there is nothing quite like a Gibson L5CES and a Fender Twin Reverb.
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I never thought my brown Pro sounded anything like my TR but the Pro was the 6G5 I think, black face was different. The speakers make it hard to compare (as many have pointed out).
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But you can find most early 70s fender models with less than that if you shop around!IMO spending less than $1K on a amp is a waste of money
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My Twin started as a 2 12 and only gained as a 1 15. Great amp, lost weight with the Neo. Why down size and lose headroom ? If you need to lose more weight use solid pine or oukume ply for the cab.
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In the '90's, a lot of NYC folk were using one or two Deluxes modded with 6L6's and EV12L speakers. I've got a Harry Kolbe one that I got from Hiram Bullock, great sounding but can be a challenge to maintain..
PK
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