Eastman 905CE - Pickups

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 02:35 PM

Thanks guys . . . . . all great responses and the kind of info I was hoping for.

Doug, my 905ce is a brand new model just sent up from the Eastman warehouse in California. I guess it must be a last years model or something, because to my limited knowledge it appears to have the Asian KA on it. It is basically a floating Johnny Smith size humbucker with 6 screw poles and a gold metal cover. Is there anyway to confirm if this is an Asian pickup or the newer Lollar?

Assuming it is the Asian KA, you guys have convinced me to do the upgrade ASAP. Contacting Kent is a great idea (never thought of that).

I have been playing professionally for 51 years, but have never heard guitar tone described as "syrupy"?? Thicker would have more low mids and possibly a little less in the upper mids or highs, but I have no idea what "syrupy" refers to in the sonic realm. When listening to it, does it get stuck on you?

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gitpicker

Another option is upgrading to the pickup that Eastman now uses, which is a Lollar Johnny Smith. Big step up from the Asian KA pickup and will be a very easy swap. Eastman now uses that in both the 905CE as well as 680CE Frank Vignola model.

I looked up this Lollar JS pickup as well as the Häussel Jazz, and neither of them attach to the pickguard. Both screw into the side of the neck. At this point I really prefer to replace it with a pickup that is bonded to the pickguard so I do not devalue or change the guitar with four new screw holes into the neck wood. In fact, the pickguard on these is screwed into the side of the neck with two screws, and I am unsure if two more pickup screws will be able to fit in there with the way the pickguard is mounted (see #5 in first post).

**ccroft** · 12-26-2018, 03:14 PM

Hi Tim. I’d like to add a couple things. If you’re considering a swap, I think one of the first things to think about is if you want to stick with mini humbuck or go full size. The genuine KA most folks are talking about here is a full size resin potted PAF type. As far as I know, all Johnny Smith style floaters are mini humbuckers, like your current one.

Seeing it on so many top end luthier builds from Anderson to Zimnicki made me feel I couldn’t go wrong with it. You’ll see it both floating and set. The standard floater glues to the pick guard. The PAF by Kent himself is recognizable by the 2 rows of hex/Allen head screws. It used to be that all the Asian ones are slotted.

Just in case you haven’t been there for a while, Dylan has a 16” Eastman with a hand-wound KA floating PAF for sale. I just saw it on Friday. If this pickup is of interest, maybe you should go give that one a play and see what you think. It's a rare opportunity to try before you buy.

Sticking with what you have for a while is very good advice. In the future if you find you find yourself thinking about the KA PAF you’re welcome to try out one of mine. Different instrument, but might give some idea what to expect. If that happens, feel free to PM me.

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 03:26 PM

Thanks "C". I would probably prefer to stick with a mini humbucker, simply because it won't mod the guitar at all. Looking the KA site, he does have a mini humbucker there with two rows of poles: Kent Armstrong Handmade Pickups - Services He also shows a single coil mini size. I have always preferred single coil pups, but would naturally talk to him first to discuss. Honestly though, I have been a Strat player for most of my playing years, and am not totally sure what tone I want from this archtop. It will primarily be used for recording and I want it to be great. That being said, I have recorded a bunch of quick clips with it, and everyone I have played them for says it sounds really good.

Yeah I saw Dylan's ad for that Eastman and would have seriously considered buying it if it was a ce model. Good idea though to pop in and see him and give it a try. Only thing is I need to record it to really tell if it is what I want. Not sure if he would let me take it away for a day.

**ccroft** · 12-26-2018, 03:37 PM

You're really in it now Tim.... single pole, double pole, full size, Johnny Smith.... I knew he had all those options but didn't want to muddy things up further :)

As a long time strat player it may be that that the JS or single is right for you. I doubt the full size would need any real guitar modding though. It's got the tab that glues to pick guard. It's only about a quarter inch bigger north to south.

Here's another good resource for all things Kent: ac accessories

I'd characterize 'syrupy' as having a bigger bottom end, and less high mids. Top end is still there in spades.

Charles

**Cunamara** · 12-26-2018, 04:35 PM

Tim, here's what I'd suggest. I identified what sounds I like among jazz guitarists and what I was aiming for in my own case (Jim Hall's tone with his P90 ES-175 on his records with Sonny Rollins and Art Farmer is one of my very favorite tones) but I play an archtop with a floating pickup. Then I talked to the pickup maker about what I wanted. Kent is very open to this as are many others. In my case, I spoke directly with Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe Guitars and through that conversation he ended up recommending one of his HCC pickups with an alnico II magnet. I can roll off a lot of highs, if I am in the mood, and the pickup doesn't sound muddy. I can get a lot of sparkle if I want that.

The direct conversation with Pete resulted in a pickup that gets me what I want. I started with decribing the sound I wanted and let his expertise do the walking. I'd have rolled with whatever he recommended- a floating P90, humbucker, etc., but he went with the HCC (which I suspect is a personal favorite of Pete's).

Specifically regarding the Biltoft HCC, there are some videos on YouTube that will give you a very good idea of the sound- look for the ones by Fred Archtop (who is also a forum member) in particular. Likewise you can search YouTube for "Kent Armstrong PAF-0" and hear some good examples of that sound; there's a guy who posts under "Minor7b5th" or something like that who's got those pickups in several archtops. I haven't looked for "Lollar Johnny Smith" but I'd be surprised if there isn't something. And there are a few videos for Kent's floating single coil pickup too.

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 05:12 PM

Thanks for the insights Cunamara. I have talked to Pete many times and have ordered a couple of pickups from him in the past. He does good work, but the pickups I got have just been okay. For Strats, Teles and Gibsons, David Allen makes wonderfully great sounding pickups, but he does not make archtop pickups. My plan is to give Kent a call and likely get something from him.

With regards to sound/tone, I am not really sure yet as I have only had this archtop for a week now. I am sure I could find tons of examples online, but if I had to pick one famous player's tone it would likely be Pat Metheny. Mostly I want a nice thick warm articulate tone, but with a touch of that glassy high end and great touch sensitivity. This Asian KA seems to have too much in the 1k to 3k range and is just generally a bit bland. I have a pair of Harmonic Design Z90's in my Les Paul style guitar and I LOVE that neck pickup. I suspect I would really like a floating P90 style. I do like a couple of the AR805ce samples I listened to on YouTube as well, but they were with the stock pickups. I plan to talk to Dylan tomorrow or Friday and see if he will let me borrow that AR805 with the KA humbucker in it. Although, I kind of doubt he will let it go out of the store though.

**Gitpicker** · 12-26-2018, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tim Z

I looked up this Lollar JS pickup as well as the Häussel Jazz, and neither of them attach to the pickguard. Both screw into the side of the neck. At this point I really prefer to replace it with a pickup that is bonded to the pickguard so I do not devalue or change the guitar with four new screw holes into the neck wood. In fact, the pickguard on these is screwed into the side of the neck with two screws, and I am unsure if two more pickup screws will be able to fit in there with the way the pickguard is mounted (see #5 in first post).

Lollar supplies them to Eastman with the pick guard mount. The Lollars are absolutely not screwed into the neck.

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 09:44 PM

Not disagreeing with you, but I cannot find them. This is the only Johnny Smith floating humbucker I can find on the Lollar site: Johnny Smith Style Humbucker

**Tim Z** · 12-26-2018, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

I doubt the full size would need any real guitar modding though. It's got the tab that glues to pick guard. It's only about a quarter inch bigger north to south.

Hi Charles

The Eastman 905ce pickguard is cut in a bit to fit perfectly around the stock pickup. If I add a KA humbucker I will definitely have to cut out the pickguard a bit to accommodate the wider pickup. Not that I am against it; rather just need to make sure if I do it, the job is done perfectly and cosmetically accurate. I have no problem swapping pickups and wiring guitars myself, but when it comes to cutting and woodwork, then I am not the one to do that. I would have to pay someone like Dylan to do that.

**Cunamara** · 12-26-2018, 10:59 PM

Kent has been known to build a new pickup and put it into the original housing that came with the guitar. He did that for Max405's Heritage JS and for my former teacher's Gibson JS. Might be an option for your Eastman.

**ccroft** · 12-26-2018, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tim Z

. . . I want a nice thick warm articulate tone, but with a touch of that glassy high end and great touch sensitivity. This Asian KA seems to have too much in the 1k to 3k range . . .

With my track record (advice on strings) I'm not sure I should say this, but that sounds like your describing the full size PAF to a Tee. That 1K honk is exactly what I needed to get rid of in the Eastman 880 I bought. This was absolutely the right pill for that headache. It's a common course of treatment.

I didn't realize your pick guard is cut around the current pickup. Pretty trivial fix if it's the right PUP for you though. Some would say get a new guard and preserve the original with PUP intact. I don't see much point in that.

Cunamara's comment about Max405 is right on it. Earlier I linked you to his website with a nice article he wrote about that, his experiences with Kent and some sound clips. Note that Joe/Max records direct AFAIK (no amp). You should talk to K about that option VS the sound you want.

Metheny: I'm not an authority, but I think he's mostly known for set humbucks in ply top with a healthy dose of processing and duct tape.

Decisions.... I know what I would do though.

**Gitpicker** · 12-27-2018, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tim Z

Not disagreeing with you, but I cannot find them. This is the only Johnny Smith floating humbucker I can find on the Lollar site: Johnny Smith Style Humbucker

You can select "floating mount"

**stevus** · 12-27-2018, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Tim Z

I looked up this Lollar JS pickup as well as the Häussel Jazz, and neither of them attach to the pickguard. Both screw into the side of the neck. At this point I really prefer to replace it with a pickup that is bonded to the pickguard so I do not devalue or change the guitar with four new screw holes into the neck wood. In fact, the pickguard on these is screwed into the side of the neck with two screws, and I am unsure if two more pickup screws will be able to fit in there with the way the pickguard is mounted (see #5 in first post).

The Häussel Flat Jazz Humbucker can also be had/ordered with an ear to attach to the pickguard. The Häussel is more or less similar to the KA handwound. The difference one could describe as a little dryer for the Häussel Flat Jazz and a little more transparent for the KA. As always, different people, different preferences. In the end you would need to hear them or have the courage to buy one and try it out on your own guitar.

**Tim Z** · 12-27-2018, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gitpicker

See if you can unscrew the pick guard and pull it up just enough to see under the pickup. It will have a sticker specifying. Externally both pickups look identical basically so you need to check underneath.

Thanks again Doug

I took off the pickguard this morning and the stock pickup on this guitar is a Kent Armstrong HJGS 6 GD. Can I assume that is the Asian KA?

I contacted Kent last night by email. Hopefully I will get a response from him today.

FWIW, the Eastman website still says that the 905ce comes stock with the Kent Armstrong HJGS 6. Perhaps they haven't updated their website to note that it now comes with the Lollar. Maybe I should contact them and see if they will swap it for me since I have only had this guitar for 9 days?

**stevus** · 12-27-2018, 03:04 PM

Yes, that's the Asian one.

**Tim Z** · 12-27-2018, 08:17 PM

New Pickup ordered from Kent today. What a great guy to talk to. He was very adamant that the best choice for my guitar would be the 12 pole Johnny Smith style humbucker. He said it would be every bit as good as the black PAF style and would not require any mods to fit it on the guitar. He also said it would be better than the Single P90 style pickup as well. I feel very confident, after talking to him, that this will be the best choice for my guitar that he makes. He is also sending me a 250k A taper thumbwheel pot to replace the 500k A that came stock. He says it will give me a better sweep than the 500k pot. I'll post back when I get it in the guitar and can comment on the change(s)

Thanks for all the help and advice

**ccroft** · 12-27-2018, 10:00 PM

Well done Tim. I look forward to hearing about the pot in particular, and what that operation was like. Is the issue with the 500K that not much happens in the first quarter turn? The thumbwheel on one of mine acts like that and it's not what I'm used to.

**Tim Z** · 12-27-2018, 10:42 PM

Pretty much yes, except with mine nothing much happens in the first 95%, which is more typical of how Linear taper pots react. Kent said that a 250k pot will likely make it a bit more usable. He actually tried to talk me into getting rid of the pots completely, and I understand why that can be an option, but I really want the use of a volume and tone control. Maybe down the road, after I have had this guitar for awhile and it isn't so special anymore, I will consider putting in two proper pots and screw them into the pickguard.

**Tim Z** · 01-11-2019, 06:45 PM

Well, the new pickup arrived a couple of days ago and the original pup came off fairly easily. Unfortunately, I am still not able to play the guitar with the new pickup, or offer any review of it yet. To be honest, I am very frustrated with it and will probably have to take the guitar to a good guitar repair shop and get them to install it and get it setup right. I took the pickguard off and we glued the new pickup to it with "hide" glue, which seems to have worked very well, but will allow it to be taken off fairly easy. The problem is that this pickup when glued to the guard, in what appeared to be proper alignment, is now way out of alignment with the strings and neck. It is sitting on an angle now. Plus, it is now also too high and on an angle where it is much too close to the low strings compared to the high strings. Thinking about it logically, gluing a pickup to a pickguard is a really dumb way to do this. While I have done tons and tons of wiring and pickup swaps with Strats, Teles, Les Pauls, etc. I am not really sure what to do to fix this one. As it sits right now, the guitar is unplayable.

I'll post back if/when I ever get the pickup installed properly and can offer some thoughts on it.

**ccroft** · 01-12-2019, 03:40 PM

Damn Tim! I was thinking it was about time for you to post, but wasn't expecting this. You have my sympathies and condolences. Can't see why the angle would be different unless it's a lump of glue or a shim missing or something...

I bet if you posted a couple pics in Builders Bench you'd get some real help. You're more likely to catch the attention of one of our fine luthiers there. Matt Cushman hangs KA's off pick guards on his guitars, and he's very helpful.

I any case, I hope it gets solved quickly and easily.

**Cunamara** · 01-12-2019, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tim Z

The problem is that this pickup when glued to the guard, in what appeared to be proper alignment, is now way out of alignment with the strings and neck. It is sitting on an angle now. Plus, it is now also too high and on an angle where it is much too close to the low strings compared to the high strings.

A couple of thoughts.

First, hide glue- good idea I'd not have thought of. Mounting the pickup to the pickguard introduces some variables. I don't know if Bob Benedetto invented this way of doing it but he at least popularized it and a lot of makers- especially Eastman- have followed. I prefer a pickup mounted to the end of the neck a la the Gibson JS, but that creates its own headaches in fitting to the end of the neck.

Second, to correct the height if the pick guard can't be adjusted up and down (as many/most can't very easily), you can put a shim between the pickup tab and the underside of the pick guard. I bought some 1/16" or 1/8" sheet wood at the hobby shop to fashion into a shim.

Third, to correct the angle you can possibly adjust the angle of the pickguard; or make a wedge-shaped shim to go between the tab and the underside of the pickguard; or you can bend the tab. I have done the latter with JS style pickups. It worked fine and took a few minutes of trial and error (one was an Allparts, though, not a KA; the other was the bridge pickup on my Ibanez GB10 which is OEM).

**.02$** · 01-13-2019, 12:30 AM

I replaced the stock JS with the hand wound on my 905ce in 2008. At the time they used three tiny screws to attach pickup to finger rest and the smallest screwdriver I could find was too large to remove. After some frustration I took it to a "repair" guy who drilled the screws and replaced with larger screws. The angle of the pickup needs to come off the pickguard so string height is balanced. Not a lot of room to raise poles and it tends to be bass heavy so the only way to adjust is remove the assembly and bend the tab a bit. I don't think the glue was a good idea as I would prefer to bend the tab on the pickup after removing from the wood finger rest. .

**Gitpicker** · 01-13-2019, 07:45 PM

You're almost there Tim! Good advice from Cunamara. Well consider this, once it's set up correctly it will be DONE and you'll have a superb guitar with killer tone and all you'll have to do is play it. A good luthier/repair shop should be able to to this no problem. I put a KA hand wound in a Pisano model some years back and it took a bit of fiddling to get it to fit and look right but once it was done it was done and worth the effort. Swaps like this are almost never a simple drop in fit.

**sgosnell** · 01-13-2019, 08:45 PM

Ideally, one would mount the pickup to the pickguard and then install the pickguard on the guitar, adjusting it so the pickup is oriented correctly. An aftermarket installation requires some effort. You cannot expect to slap on the pickup and be playing in five minutes, because the laws of physics cannot be broken with impunity. The options are bending the tab, adding shims either flat or angled, adjusting the pickguard, or a combination of all the above. A combination usually gives the best results. It takes repeated trial and error to get everything correct, but it's worth the effort to some. Not to others. Not to belabor the point, but an archtop is not a flat solidbody. Nothing works the same on both.