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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And, yes, Is <> Ought
John
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12-20-2018 06:40 PM
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Ahem. Well, I believe that the quote may have been attributable to Segovia, and I think that it basically meant -
"YOU are responsible for the tone produced when you play the guitar, so you'd better work on that".
Seems reasonable enough, don't it?
But such statements are not scientific of course, give me a break. Of course it's both the player and instrument/equipment (the man and the machine, if you will), and applying the "theory of experiments" to prove it would be too easy. Child's play. (It might be kind of interesting and fun though, now that I think about it).
Anyway, it was a nice post from JZ. No need for a bunch of guys to get all pissed off at each other about.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Grant Green is a good example of a single cool jazz sound.
Bruce Forman makes an interesting distinction between L5 players and 175 players. 175 players have to roll off to avoid too much ‘plink’ in their tone. So Jim and Pat were both 175 players.
An L5 on the other hand, handles being wide open and responds in a different way.
(I actually find the surprising brightness of the old 175s really suits a lot of the music I play where I actually need a pretty strident sound. Those guitars are pretty bright. Through a Fender amp it can be a bit ice picky even!)
What is true of a 175 is more true of a 335. Thus Adam Rogers. His picking (which I sort of use) with that extreme contact angle acts as a physical tone roll off (you can hear it in his tele and strat playing too) but I also suspect he rolls off on his gear as well.
It’s interesting that Sheryl Bailey who uses a similar technique advises here students not to roll of the treble on their amps or guitars.
Anyway all good examples of how thinking about this type of thing in a reductionist way ‘gear or fingers’ is a bit silly. But I think most of the players I admire in any genre start with the acoustic sound as a basis. I think even Holdsworth falls into this category....Last edited by christianm77; 12-21-2018 at 08:32 AM.
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And of you’re really unlucky you’ll get the ‘why I think my tone sucked on last night’s gig’ essay. I could talk about this shit all day lol.
Anyway I’m sorry people are getting a bit grumpy because some interesting points are being made.Last edited by christianm77; 12-21-2018 at 08:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
So you are partly taking advantage of the fact that if you pick softer then the note tails off differently. Amplify that and you have the basis of a more legato, even sound. But otoh because open string resonance etc is now louder you have to focus a more on muting.
You’ll have to forgive me as I don’t know what kind of signal processing you use, but for my own experience when I play modern stuff my tendency is to reduce my pick attack even for clean... then the trick is very much to set the amp in the sweet spot where it responds just right. I’m not aiming for as soft a touch as you I suspect, if only because I find it very hard to mute with my right hand technique, but it’s definitely a spectrum...
OTOH if I play with the Hot Club say, I set it just loud enough to amplify my playing, because I want that attack and tail off.
(Bop is somewhere in between.)
As I do the latter more than the former I find I often don’t quite turn up enough, but I REALLY HATE the idea of being obnoxiously loud, so it’s a tricky one with drums etc. I feel I need to do more of it to get the instinct.
I suppose one aspect is whether or not you play only solid bodies or archtop and whether or not you ever practice without an amp. Personally I do all of these things, but I play a wide variety of styles (prob too many!)
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I'm slightly hesitant to wade into this discussion, but I can speak for my own experience. When I bought my Gibson 175 many years ago, I was somewhat disappointed that it didn't sound much different from the Ibanez Artist solid-body I had been using for jazz until then. I was hoping to sound a lot more like Kenny Burrell etc., I wanted a much bigger and 'rounder' sound, and I thought a 'proper' jazz guitar would give me all that 'out of the box'. But it didn't. I even wondered if the guitar was a bit defective or something.
Anyway I eventually decided it must be down to me rather than the guitar, so I experimented with pick angle etc. and after a couple of years I realised I was getting a much better 'jazz' tone, it was now sounding a lot more like my jazz guitar heroes. Then I discovered that I could get a much better jazz sound from my old solid-body guitar too. In fact I could make my old Ibanez Artist sound quite a bit like my 175.
So in my case the biggest factors turned out to be pick angle (i.e. hitting the strings at an angle), picking nearer the fingerboard, and generally having a more sensitive feel when addressing the string with the pick (I can't really explain this but I can feel it).
All this seems far more important than the gear in how I get my sound.
But as I said, I can only speak for my own experience.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
But the gear side of it is still there right? I mean how about strings? I literally can’t play anything lighter than 11s and really only happy on 12s for instance. Not directly for tonal reasons, just because the way I produce the sound on my instrument doesn’t work with a light set up.
Different strokes of course. Holdsworth type players are going to spend a lot of time thinking about other stuff...
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The actual proof is that really professional
Jazz and Rock Guitarists for the last 57 years have left both the tone controls wide open on their Guitars and Amps and have controlled the bass & treble response and dynamics of their Guitars solely with their fingers .
No , wait- that's incorrect , never mind that part.
'Tone IS in the fingers - including using your fingers to play the Guitar AND turn the knobs on your Guitar, Amp, Modeler, EFX , sound man live board , Engineer in Studio , Mastering Engineer etc.'
Great tone and fingers are more evident on Acoustic Instruments IMO.
Some Players by skill and will can get more out of an instrument than others of course.Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-21-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Players differ, gear is important and people on the internet like to make out that points are being made that aren’t.
And the world keeps on turning...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
On the acoustic question, my replies have been aimed at the very specific claim expressed in two posts. I'm not including the names because it's not a personal thing with either poster, and both have offered ideas and insights on many topics that I appreciate very much. So I'm not dissing anyone, just taking on one of the "sacred cows" that gets expressed from time to time, that somehow the basic acoustic guitar is the bar, the standard, the bellwether, of great playing. I contend that it's a very good thing, of course, but I don't see acoustic playing, acoustic sound, as a sine qua non of "great playing" or "great tone."
So here are two representative statements, again nothing against these guys, they are great contributors to the forum and I hope they stay forever:
Statement #1:
"Tone is in the fingers (and the wrists, elbows, shoulders etc etc)... But the "proof" to me is to hear someone play unplugged, even if it's a solid body. Very few players can make an unplugged Les Paul "talk", if ya know what I mean... If you can sound compelling that way, then you almost can't fuck up the sound with the wrong amp...
Statement #2
...Electric guitars are essentially acoustic instruments made to be heard by the aid of electro-magnetic pickups and an amplifier (or two!).
I have not intended to suggest that the guitar's overall acoustic response has no place. I am talking specifically about the sound of a guitar played with no augmentation of its basic sound, and the ability of a musician to play on an acoustic the same thing they would play on an electric as if that were a standard of excellence. Both propositions I think are worthwhile opinions one can hold, but they are not self-evidently true, nor do I think they hold some place of privilege in thinking about jazz guitar playing.
I'm not upset or angry at anybody either. This is fun! I am used to spirited debate, I'm used to being shown my errors, I'm used to admitting when my claims have been shot down successfully, and I love to advance a square on the great game board of life by learning from my mistakes. Many on this board have been the recipient of retractions and apologies from me and can bear witness to that.
So a guitar's resonant qualities certainly do affect its electric sound, a point I always affirm. But I do not accept (a) that how a guitar sounds without electric amplification is a measure of how good it sounds amplified nor (b) that how a player sounds playing mere acoustic music (no amplification) constitutes a standard for whether their electric playing is successful. In fact, acoustic technique can be a disaster when applied to an electric guitar.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Ha...well I really like Jack Z's guitar reviews - he must be having some fun with us here...
Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-21-2018 at 01:14 PM.
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I don't think I've ever been purged from a thread before. Weird.
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Good tone is very a subjective matter. The guy plays very well.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I've liked Gray Sargent's playing for a long time. I'm sure he could sound good enough on almost any guitar. Playing in the studio, or at home in a small room, is different from playing in a large public place. The larger the venue, the less the tone can be heard, and the less it matters. Using a lesser guitar on a tour makes complete sense, but using one that has a familiar shape, weight, and feel is probably rather important. Not that I've ever toured with Tony Bennett, but if by some miracle I did get that call, I wouldn't take a Tele.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Look, I know many admiring fans and guitar students think great guitar players live in an elevated world of pure A E S T H E T I C S, but they are in fact also professionals working for a living, and really everyone at every level of the biz has to deal with the many of the same basic facts of life - how to get the instrument to the overseas gig is one of them. Your concrete options (aside from 'hope you can take it as hand luggage') become - get an amazing flight case, check it and hope it lives up to the hype, buy a seat for the guitar (even this some airlines can be a jerk about), or, get a cheapo guitar you can live with and stick in a Hiscox in the hold.
Given Larry Carlton himself fetched up to a recent UK date short a 335 - the capricious vagaries of airlines are something that affects EVERYONE working in music. Don't know if that guitar was a vintage Gibson, or something else... In the former case, LC has a stronger stomach than me lol.
Thing is a couple of times airlines can move the goalposts on you. Suddenly in a bloodcurdling moment, you have to check that guitar you thought you had a seat for. Godin in a Hiscox in checked luggage. Known quantity. It might go wrong, but minimise the risk. Easier on the ticker for sure.
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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I keep trying to purge Jim from my latest Mac Mini, but it won't let me, for some reason, ha!
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
2 new & excellent Jazz Comping Truefire...
Yesterday, 10:22 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions