Using Reverb/Delay

[christianm77]

This is one of Pat's most recent releases (recorded in 2015)

He tends to jump around in his different styles.

Actually, despite his much brighter and snappier tone here, his tone still has a low level wash of ambience that you can hear when he's solo, so I suppose my point is null and void

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Pat also dialed it back in his duets with Jim (recorded 1998)

Judging from the picture on the video, Pat also wore a turtleneck and took off his wig.

[Misty]

To the OP

Yes for me it’s kind of a reaction against the vogue for slathering jazz guitar tones in ambience. I just want to get away from that. It sounds so good it’s kind of like going on a diet.

Julian Lage, Peter Bernstein and Adam Rogers use no or very little ambience for instance.

Very interestingly the daddy of this, mr Metheny himself, seems to have ditched this for a much more traditional tone.

I think the tides of fashion are on the turn, maybe? The Kurt paradigm might be less influential now

Using ambience well is a real art. There are some quite big name players who I feel would sound even better if they toned down their delay a bit, but others for whom it’s such an organic part of their sound I couldn’t imagine them not using it.

But a lot depends on the room acoustics. It’s also a brave guitarist who can play an elevated amp with the speaker next to them with no reverb. Horrible!

that last point is probably why i played dry for 2 years, i don't want to hide from imperfections, i want to face them and make it sound good instead of covering it up with effects, but then again i guess just a smidge of delay/reverb might give my sound a bit of a livelier feel, i'll have to buy some new effects and experiment lol

[Misty]

A technique I learned is to set your delays and reverbs at the point where you can just barely hear it and then pull it down just a little bit more. You’d be surprised how noticeable it actually is when you toggle back-and-forth between dry and wet.

i'll have to try this out, but does it really give a more spacious (?) feel if it's that low in the mix?

[christianm77]

that last point is probably why i played dry for 2 years, i don't want to hide from imperfections, i want to face them and make it sound good instead of covering it up with effects, but then again i guess just a smidge of delay/reverb might give my sound a bit of a livelier feel, i'll have to buy some new effects and experiment lol

Yeah that's exactly it... It's very easy to live with slight imperfections when you have a bit of reverb, but with no reverb you can hear them all right away, in your face.

I think it's good for one's playing.

Where I am at the moment, if use delay or reverb on a tune it's a conscious choice, not just something I have on all the time.

[Misty]

Yeah that's exactly it... It's very easy to live with slight imperfections when you have a bit of reverb, but with no reverb you can hear them all right away, in your face.

I think it's good for one's playing.

Where I am at the moment, if use delay or reverb on a tune it's a conscious choice, not just something I have on all the time.

when i stopped using delay/verb i discovered dynamics (loud/soft. picking in different places...) i'm afraid i will lose those nuances again once i start using effects again lol

[wzpgsr]

i'll have to try this out, but does it really give a more spacious (?) feel if it's that low in the mix?

It’s subtle. I tend to think effects are too loud usually anyhow. Listen to professional recordings of all different kinds of music—especially older stuff with vocals. You’ll often only hear the reverb tails in loud notes, but I guarantee you’d notice a difference when toggling the effect on and off. It’s like something snapping sharply into focus after being just slightly blurry.

[jorgemg1984]

when i stopped using delay/verb i discovered dynamics (loud/soft. picking in different places...) i'm afraid i will lose those nuances again once i start using effects again lol

I don't see any incompatibility between the proper use of reverb or delay (or even a studio compressor) and dynamics. They are not mutually exclusive... overdrive yes, changes your approach completely.

[Misty]

i'm itching to try out a delay/reverb combo again, any recommendations for cheap but good pedals?


2 weeks ago i had a chance to buy the Dispatch master for only $110 bucks but i let it go as i wasn't sure yet if i wanted delay/reverb

[wzpgsr]

Digitech Polara

[Misty]

Digitech Polara

does it have delay and reverb?

[wzpgsr]

Crap, sorry. No, it’s only reverb.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Strymon El Capistan is an amazingly accurate recreation of tape echo (down to tape wear and wow and flutter) but it also has reverb as a secondary feature.

For jazz, it's d-d-delay overkill, but if you have ever wanted to noodle with an Echoplex


EDIT: Some jazzy Echoplex...

Full disclaimer: this was on my "makeout" tape back in the day. Try to keep your clothes on!

[feet]

I have (and love) a dispatch master, but you have to understand that it isn't reverb and delay. It's both. You have to look at them as one effect, not two separate ones. It isn't really for those who want reverb and a little delay here and there, it vice versa. It really helps to think of it as one thing.

[gggguitar]

The problem as the OP stated is that too much reverb and/or delay tends to obscure one's playing and leaves you lost in the mix.
It's a matter of personal taste and experience. Don't let anyone tell you what sounds you can or can't make.
There is nothing wrong with reverb. It's just another effect and you can always choose to use it or not to use it.
For me personally, I never use reverb when I'm practicing but when playing with others I mostly use just enough to put a little bit warm air on my sound.
You also need to take the room into consideration. If it's a really live room then you might not need any. I think that (as others have mentioned) if you're using enough reverb that you can really hear it then it's probably too much.

The OP asked why dry guitar is so harsh compared to bass, saxophone and trumpet etc.
I'm not sure I agree all the time but I think that sometimes it's worth considering that an electric guitar is really just a speaker.
What I mean is that if you imagine the strings, body of the guitar, pickups, cables, effect pedals, amplifier; it all just goes to making a speaker cone vibrate in a wood box usually placed on the floor.
A saxophone or a trumpet on the other hand involves an actual column of air changing the frequency of a vibrating mechanism (a reed or lips) and you have all the sounds bouncing around reflected inside and outside the instrument which is itself vibrating. And on top of that, all of this liveness happens at the height of a persons upper body where they are holding the instrument in the room too. They are just totally different.

[Dennis D]

Reverb is kind of like salt in food. You want it to be there but if you start to taste it it's too much.

.....and to continue that awfully good analogy, you just know that eventually, some Doctor of yours is going to come along and tell you that no matter how much ( or how little ) you use, it's too much.

[ScottM]

It’s also a brave guitarist who can play an elevated amp with the speaker next to them with no reverb. Horrible!

I'm glad to know someone else thinks that. I hate having my amp aimed straight at my ear, and the closer it is, the more uncomfortable. Given that scenario, could the reverb (or delay) fool the ear into thinking it's not so close?

...probably a dumb question.

I watched a Joe Pass video of a concert at GIT where he tells Don Mock that he doesn't travel with an amp and just plugs into the house PA. Maybe the sound in the house provides the natural reverb from the player's perspective? In theory, I like that idea, but there are plenty of factors that would make it impossible on a lot of gigs. (No PA, for one.).

IF you could get a good sound running direct to PA, and IF everything is in the mix (or monitors are giving you a good mix of mic'd and not mic'd instruments, IF you had a good sound man/woman, it would work great. I suppose I'll keep carrying an amp with me.

[feet]

Not for nothing, but one of the great things about the dispatch master is that, for all the reverb it has, the notes always poke through. It is a little unusual in that regard. You never lose your playing, for better or worse. The reverb is always behind you, not in front.

And if you need more controls, that have the avalanche run. Never played that one, though.

[christianm77]

I'm glad to know someone else thinks that. I hate having my amp aimed straight at my ear, and the the closer it is, the more uncomfortable. Given that scenario, could the reverb (or delay) fool the ear into thinking it's not so close?

...probably a dumb question.

I think so....

I watched a Joe Pass video of a concert at GIT where he tells Don Mock that he doesn't travel with an amp and just plugs into the house PA. Maybe the sound in the house provides the natural reverb from the player's perspective? In theory, I like that idea, but there are plenty of factors that would make it impossible on a lot of gigs. (No PA, for one.).

Yeah, I think that's the idea.

Running a guitar through a PA with the aid of a preamp of some kind works fine.

Monitoring can sound a bit harsh - for the reason mentioned above, and sound guys rarely dialing the sort of reverb that actually sounds good on guitar OTOH.

I DI'd a 175 into an AER straight into the desk the other day without using the actual amp or a preamp, and really enjoyed the sound I got.

Another straight into the PA guy is Tuck Andress.

IF you could get a good sound running direct to PA, and IF everything is in the mix (or monitors are giving you a good mix of mic'd and not mic'd instruments, IF you had a good sound man/woman, it would work great. I suppose I'll keep carrying an amp with me.

I feel there's no need for electronic reverb, or at least only a small amount if the room is very dry. Delay, fine, its a consciously applied effect, but I think without audible reverb everything sounds a bit tighter overall. Hard though! When the band plays reverb isn't generally audible, it's mostly for the player. But when the band plays stops etc it can sound... messy.

But yeah, FlyRig 5 works great for this stuff. Has reverb, delay and amp simulation. And a boost (mega useful)!

[Misty]

I have (and love) a dispatch master, but you have to understand that it isn't reverb and delay. It's both. You have to look at them as one effect, not two separate ones. It isn't really for those who want reverb and a little delay here and there, it vice versa. It really helps to think of it as one thing.

Not for nothing, but one of the great things about the dispatch master is that, for all the reverb it has, the notes always poke through. It is a little unusual in that regard. You never lose your playing, for better or worse. The reverb is always behind you, not in front.

And if you need more controls, that have the avalanche run. Never played that one, though.

ordered a used one for pretty cheap

[jazzgtrl4]

bumping this, just building a small pedaltrain board Nano with the volto power supply. I bought the newer MXR Reverb pedal, really nice!!. and i have an MXR Carbon copy for delay..sound great together, but ya, a little verb and delay goes alonggg wayyy. Run it right into my Bud

[wzpgsr]

Just putting in a recommendation for the Keeley Aurora reverb pedal. It has three modes, Hall/Room/Plate, and they all sound very good. However, what has most sold me on this pedal is the inclusion of a "slapback" control—like pre-delay in a DAW reverb—which gives you control over how much time it takes for the reverb to sound after a note is struck. I've always thought reverb sounds a bit better with some space between the note attack and the reverb, and now I don't need to be in a DAW to control that aspect of the effect.

[mad dog]

Since this thread started, I found another excellent delay+reverb combination:

- Maxon AD-10 analog delay. Excellent sound, capable of barely on, subtle adjustment
- OneControl Prussian Blue reverb. Somewhere between hall and spring. Mini size. lovely sounds

These plus a little clean boost are always on for jazz practice with the Polytone MBII. I have no idea how any of it would sound live. (At this rate, it'll be another 900 years before I'm ready for that ...) But it sounds especially good with the old Guild X50 in my office.

MD

[Doctor Jeff]

.....and to continue that awfully good analogy, you just know that eventually, some Doctor of yours is going to come along and tell you that no matter how much ( or how little ) you use, it's too much.

Yes, you use too much reverb. 1 gram a day of reverb is the recommended allowance. LOL.

That is a good analogy. I am amused at how focused some of us are on our pedals and knobs. Adrian Belew would be proud.

I think any effect serves 2 purposes: for you, and for the audience. Most of us especially playing alone at home need the extra ambience to make it sound good. Or maybe we’re going for a special effect. When playing with others, a touch of reverb makes the guitar sound less staccato and blends in well with bass, piano and horns, which have natural echoes or which can be sustained through breathing for instance.

I don’t have a reverb pedal currently, though previously had an EFX Holy Grail. I’d like another one TBH—nice pedal. I use amp reverb (Fender SCXD or Fishman Artist) typically set for “hall”, reverb at 25%, “tail” about 50%.

There is just no benefit to messing around with the sound too much in a traditional combo setting. Sometimes I will add a bit of chorus for one of the slower ballads just for effect, but unless the group is focused on guitar as the main soloist it sounds self-indulgent to the audience. At least that’s my perception.

[msr13]

I love reverb. For years I used it, along with a good set of flats to hide my bad technique. A couple of years ago I dumped my reverb and delay pedals, put on round wounds, and was embarrassed. Today, I have adjusted my technique so I feel more comfortable. But, I still love a good reverb sound. So, I brought it back. Now I can more autonomously judge the room, the song, and choose whether to use it, and how much, judiciously. But, thinking back, it was indeed a crutch for bad technique. Now it is a tonal choice. My wife and daughter still only humor me while I play, but the cat is loyal. So, no miracle occurred, however.