String balance and CC pickups

**archtopeddy** · 11-11-2018, 01:23 AM

At a gig today, I used my '28 Gibson L-4 (with large round hole), fitted with a Seymour Duncan CC pickup. I noticed that the high E and B strings sounded distinctly louder than the rest of the strings. It seems I recall this same issue with the original CC pickup I have on my 30s ES-150CC. Since these are "blade" pickups I'm not sure if there is a way to adjust the volume level of these individual strings. Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions on how to adjust this? I might be able to drastically lower the treble side of the pickup, but that would look awkward so I'd rather not. I guess I'm wondering if different gauge or string material might make a difference. It currently has Martin Monel strings. Or would a small EQ box or some gizmo box tame the different volume levels? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

**D.G.** · 11-11-2018, 02:02 AM

A subtle compressor can help. Also, you’ll often see a notch under the B string on some CC style pups that can help. Angle the pup and modify your touch.

**Jabberwocky** · 11-11-2018, 02:44 AM

ArchtopEddy, did you write to Seymour Duncan? He may have suggestionsbon on what to do.

Raise the bass side, lower the treble side, beef up the gauge of the wound set or lower the gauge of the plain steel string set or a combination of these factors. I guess these are the standard techniques. As far as I know-which is little- it is the core of the wound strings that give them the magnetic output. Skinny cores, low output. The lowest cost way is to lower the gauge of the plain steels, lower the treble side of the CC Pickup and adjust the force of your picking hand.

Notching the blade under the b3 and e4 strings may help but that is an irreversible modification.

**icr** · 11-11-2018, 10:47 AM

You must have an early ES-150. I think around 1938 Gibson notched the blade under the B-string. The Mccarty pickup of 1947, also had a lower magnet under the B-string. In fact the backing plate was cut-out to allow the B-string magnet to be positioned farther back.
I don't know anything about the Duncan pickup, but my experience is that there is good reason Gibson abandoned the 'blade' style and went to individual pole pieces by the 1940s.

**Fred Archtop** · 11-11-2018, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by icr

I think around 1938 Gibson notched the blade under the B-string.

Hi,

I discussed this point with René Duchaussoir years ago, one of the very best specialists of prewar Gibsons. He told me that prewar ES-150s were never notched under the B string by Gibson themselves. To corroborate, I have a 1938 ES-150 and the blade is not cut. Some guitarists did this themselves but certainly not Gibson.

OTOH, Late '70s ES-175 CC beared a notch under the B string when out of the factory.

**neatomic** · 11-11-2018, 12:15 PM

the earliest cc pups had no notch..because they were still using wound B strings!...when unwound B strings soon after came into fashion, notches were incorporated...a wound b had less magnetic strength than an unwound

for the op..try using stainless steel or cobalt strings..rather than monel or pure nickel...the extra magnetic strength will help...since the unwound strings will remain the same, and the wound strings will have added ooomph

luck

cheers

**archtopeddy** · 11-11-2018, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

for the op..try using stainless steel or cobalt strings..rather than monel or pure nickel...the extra magnetic strength will help...since the unwound strings will remain the same, and the wound strings will have added ooomph

Thanks! That was the kind of answer for which I was hoping. Something that doesn't require my modifying the pickup or guitar setup. This will be easy to try and strings are cheap to buy. I can lower the treble bout if needed but on this particular guitar it could be a bit tricky to do; trying the strings (and/or some compressor as DG suggested) is worth a first shot. Also, I suspect the amp might have a something to do with it. I have other amps, I'll try changing around see if it helps.

Thanks all for your insights. If I figure this out, I'll post my fix here.

**icr** · 11-11-2018, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Fred Archtop

Hi,

I discussed this point with René Duchaussoir years ago, one of the very best specialists of prewar Gibsons. He told me that prewar ES-150s were never notched under the B string by Gibson themselves. To corroborate, I have a 1938 ES-150 and the blade is not cut. Some guitarists did this themselves but certainly not Gibson.

OTOH, Late '70s ES-175 CC beared a notch under the B string when out of the factory.

Thanks, I have penciled in a note of this in my copy of Duchossoir's book.

**Cunamara** · 11-11-2018, 08:04 PM

I've got two guitars with Pete Biltoft CC type pickups. String balance is pretty good to spot on with nickel plated steel roundwounds. The plain string next to the wound ones often seems too loud- the B string or the G if unwound; using a slightly heavier wound string next to it eases the transition.

It doesn't take a lot of lowering the treble side to fnd a compromise IME.

**Gitpicker** · 11-13-2018, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

I've got two guitars with Pete Biltoft CC type pickups. String balance is pretty good to spot on with nickel plated steel roundwounds. The plain string next to the wound ones often seems too loud- the B string or the G if unwound; using a slightly heavier wound string next to it eases the transition.

It doesn't take a lot of lowering the treble side to fnd a compromise IME.

I concur. My Eastman with a Biltoft CC floater is pretty close but not perfect, but "pretty close" is about as good as you can hope for with ANY pickup that doesn't have pole screw adjustments. Lately I am using Thomastik 13 bebop strings (wound) and they are pretty darn balanced with the Biltoft. Going to a 14 on the 1st string is the only change I add.

I will keep trying different string combinations and let you know if I find anything better.

**archtopeddy** · 11-13-2018, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Gitpicker

I concur. My Eastman with a Biltoft CC floater is pretty close but not perfect, but "pretty close" is about as good as you can hope for with ANY pickup that doesn't have pole screw adjustments. Lately I am using Thomastik 13 bebop strings (wound) and they are pretty darn balanced with the Biltoft. Going to a 14 on the 1st string is the only change I add.

I will keep trying different string combinations and let you know if I find anything better.

Thanks Doug for the input. I think I may need to reconfigure my CC pickup on my 28 L-4 so I can more easily adjust the treble/bass sides of the pickup. (Long story on why it's set up they way it is. Let's just say that it's too cumbersome to adjust the way it's set up now)

By the way, last night I saw Jeff and Brian and the gang from Black Market Trust. They all seemed in good spirits and sounded great!

**Franz 1997** · 11-13-2018, 02:00 PM

I've fiddled around with different strings to try to improve the balance of CC pickups, but the imbalance still bothered me. In the end, I asked Rautia pickups ( in Finland) to mill the blade of a CC model so that it was perfectly compensated for a full set of TI flat 12s. It works perfectly, and was worth it to me. Daniel Slaman in the Netherlands was the first I think to offer a fully compensated CC pickup - but only if you buy a guitar with it, so not really a cheap solution..

I get it that for most players here it doesn't seem an issue, but it's worth pointing out that at least one pickup maker will offer a stand-alone pickup with a fully compensated blade, if you ask. Not cheap, but worth it if the imbalance - not just the strong B, but the weak wound G - bothers you.

Of course, a mixed set of strings is a lot cheaper, if you can get it to work

**Cunamara** · 11-13-2018, 02:37 PM

Sme pickup maker- Pete Biltoft, I think- offers small supplemental magnets that go on the back of the pickup under the string or strings you want to make louder. With a floating pickup or a solidbody there is sometimes not enough room, but for an inset pickup in an archtop that shouldn't be a problem. Maybe just put one under the wound string(s) closest to the plain string? I haven't tried this myself.

**jazzbow** · 11-13-2018, 04:50 PM

Barney Kessel had 2 maybe 3 ES350 but swapped out those CC pickups.

I started a thread on famous players guitars and the CC guitar came up.

Using video footage and contemporary photos we found Barney had tried all three permutations.
That is, Blade, Notch under B string and then the 6 tooth comb version.

If you watch the 'Blue Mist' video with BK, Burrell and Green you can make out a deep filed groove under the B string on a single bladed CC.
One late 60's early 70's video has what seems to be tape wrapping around the B portion of the CC pickup.

I cannot find that thread to link, shame as it was really interesting. Soz.

If you check out de Armond pickups they stop short of the B and top E to reduce magnetic polarity.

String balance and CC pickups-dearmond-rhc-b-soundhole-pickup-126714-jpeg

String balance and CC pickups-dearmond-rhc-b-soundhole-pickup-126714-jpeg

So Mr Kessel was chasing that tone Dragon too.

**archtopeddy** · 11-13-2018, 06:01 PM

Thanks Jazzbow for the great info! I looked around on the site and I think I found the thread you mentioned.
Is it this one? Barney Kessells guitar, any other musicians guitars being used

(You have to scroll down a bit to find the parts about the CC pickup)

**neatomic** · 11-13-2018, 06:06 PM

bk on cc

cheers

ps- the dearmond soundhole pups also had two separate winds...one around the e-a-d-g poles..and the other around the b-e poles

**sgosnell** · 11-13-2018, 06:33 PM

I have one of those DeArmons, and it has all 6 polepieces visible, and adjustable.

**JaxJaxon** · 11-13-2018, 08:08 PM

You could try some wax or clay over the rails at the B and E to reduce the magnetic strength

**archtopeddy** · 11-13-2018, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by JaxJaxon

You could try some wax or clay over the rails at the B and E to reduce the magnetic strength

Thanks for the idea. Sounds like a pretty easy thing to try!

**sgosnell** · 11-13-2018, 08:34 PM

Wax or clay have no effect on magnetic fields.

**jazzbow** · 11-14-2018, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by archtopeddy

Thanks Jazzbow for the great info! I looked around on the site and I think I found the thread you mentioned.
Is it this one? Barney Kessells guitar, any other musicians guitars being used

(You have to scroll down a bit to find the parts about the CC pickup)

Yup, that's it.

The wrap over the blade could be something to disrupt the magnetic flux of the pickup. Lead?

String gauges of the 30's would have been quite heavy with a wound B string therefore the blade would have been better balanced.

**neatomic** · 11-14-2018, 07:10 PM

on a true cc, the blade just transfers a small portion of the magnetic energy...the actual magnets are the two giant slabs that sit underneath the top...what makes a cc so unique is that the magnetic interface is about 6 inches long...not just over the blade or polepiece...a huge portion of the string is being amplified

thats why no copy other than cc in the uk are actually like true vintage cc's...lollar does a 3 screw top mount version but uses plexi, not magnets! vintage vibe p biltoft copped his stuff from lollar, and will build you anything you want, except a true vintage style cc!!!

cheers