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Ok, this is speculation but I think I know who this dealer is and my thoughts are this and then the OP can see what can happen.
If this is who I think the dealer is this very post would make me never ever do business with that dealer. It would only confirm what I think in general about deaer what he l carries and the descriptions. A negative post that your situation has would in my opinion be the worst nightmare this deal could have. I hope you get you money back, fast, and without issue. As of now it already confirms my worst fear no matter what. Thank You for helping the forum out.
Say it ain't so but I think it is.
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11-02-2018 06:58 PM
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Buying anything, ESPECIALLY guitars, is always CYA. I'd not hesitate in revealing this lowlife's company!
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This is the second recent thread where a U.K. based buyer has come in the forum and told us about really terrible experiences with a vendor, and then refused to name the vendor.
I don’t get it. Why wouldn’t you name the vendor? Is it some cultural thing? Does that make sense to our fellow U.K. forumites? Genuine question.
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We are all curious but it is not time to "name and shame". I don't think it is cultural. Doesn't help the OP in any way to name the dealer until he gets stonewalled. Give him till next week. It achieves nothing now except sate our curiosity.
Hiring a lawyer, was in my experience, throwing good money after bad. The $2000 consultation fee I was quoted was just the beginning; it was just to talk. I was angry then but not so angry that I left my good sense behind. I urge a cool head.
My case revolved around a piece of remanufactured equipment, old made new, that was supposed to have been delivered. The chap said that it was ready to be shipped. I sent him payment. And then it stalled...again and again. I sent my own shipping agent to pick it up. And when he showed up when the chap said my shipping agent could the chap turned him away at the gate. This aborted pickup caused me money. He was clearly playing me. Tired of his shenanigans, I thought I would get all legal. This was when I ran into the "$2000 first and then we talk". I was flummoxed until I ran into an old classmate who is admitted to another bar.
"The civil tort route would be very expensive. Throwing good money after bad. There are court fees, filing fees, hearing fees, etc. not to mention your lawyer's consultation fees..Even if you obtained a judgement in your favour, you would still have to try to collect on it. And then there is your lawyer. Do you want to pay him $20 000 to recover $11 000? Try the fraudulent angle. State the facts to the authorities. Let them decide if they want to act. Even if you do not get your money back, if they do decide to act, they will give him hell."
So, I did. And the AGO opened a case on him and Sheriff of the County did send his men over to have a talk with him. I filed with the FBI Internet Fraud Service. I filed with the USPS Postmaster. I filed with BBB. The chap called me up after having avoided my calls in consternation. Why are the Sheriff's men here at his office and asking questions? I got my goods soon after. They did not exactly work as promised. The chap misppropriated the name and trademark of the German company that made the equipment originally. I sent the German company a heads up. And they went after him legally in the US for trademark infringement. That caused him time and money in court.
I broke him for crossing me. It caused him more money than the amount he took from me for shipping me substandard goods. He played me for a sucker but I played him back.
It was with some satisfaction that I found out the fecker died recently. He played me and at least one other guy in New York City for ten times what he took from me. The NYC guy sued him and lost.
Throughout all this, he knew how to give out small favours to earn plaudits from those whom he gave small favours to in order to reel in a big one. I sought internet justice by going to the fora. Many stood up for him, short of outright rubbishing my story, because, you see, it was not their money that he took. As far as they were concerned, he did them small favours and so, he was a good guy in their book. People are like that: you are nice to me, doesn't matter that you are rotten to others.
Not the time to name and shame. When you have exhausted all avenues and got no resolution, try the fraud angle. State the facts and then let the authorities in his city decide if they want to act. And then name and shame.
It continues to astound me that an "experienced" dealer could not be arsed to pack a limited edition Gibson with care; and then sent it via USPS! That was courting disaster intentionally and it did. The best insurance against shipping damage is proper packing, first and foremost. Shipping insurance is for when the most elaborate and best packing job fails to protect the goods against a shipping calamity, not typical mishandling. Insurance is not something you want to claim on. Perhaps the dealer thinks that the insurance is for the customer, not for him. If he fails to claim on it, too bad for the customer. I have met a lot of sellers like that. The customer pays for it to insure the seller. But it is all on the seller when he fails to claim on it. It continues to astound me how many sellers, private and commercial, cannot be bothered to pack well and fall back on, Don't worry, insurance will cover it. And when the insurance claim fails , they run for the hills and leave the customer holding the bag...
Good luck, badgerotoole. I hope you get all your money back, including the 20% UK VAT and duties you paid. Don't settle for less. He owes you that duty of care to deliver the goods in perfect condition. The insurance is to protect him, not to protect you. If the insurance does not protect him you do not suffer the loss. Don't allow him to pass that on to you. He has failed to deliver the goods as contracted. He has to reimburse you immediately regardless of his outcome with his insurer. That is my reading of it.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-03-2018 at 01:24 AM.
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Don't they always say that when things go south/pearshaped as if implying somehow that YOU are the cause of it? Tell him to look at his own packing job and then using USPS and ask him how is anyone to believe him that they never had had anything like it in their years of business? I would believe him if in all their years of business, this was their VERY FIRST time packing and shipping a guitar anywhere, not to mention that it was a limited edition $10 000 Gibson.
Originally Posted by badgerotoole
Only an absolute beginner without a clue does that. Not an experienced dealer. No experienced dealer I know would choose to use USPS to ship an archtop or acoustic guitar, especially not overseas. A plank, maybe, as planks are much smaller, in general. First, USPS would only insure a maximum of $650 of declared value. Second, a dealer would want to ensure the safe and quick delivery of a $10 000 guitar; USPS is not quick. As for safe, once it leaves the USA, it is ParcelForce in the UK. USPS may be superb in the US (I received the safe flawless delivery of an archtop from Canada delivered by CanadaPost and then USPS so I do not automatically fault USPS; I have also read reports of dumbasses wrapping a guitar in its case in only a layer of bubble-wrap, no shipping box, and shipping it via USPS with no damage whatsoever so I cut the poor often maligned men and women posties some slack) but ParcelForce USPS has no control over.
This dealer is just full of bollocks and shite, in my book, pulling out their "never seen something like this in all their years of business". Anyone who packs and ships via USPS like he did to you is courting certain disaster intentionally, in my reading of it.
Utter bollocks.
PS The dealer recognised it was a rare guitar and that you might not get another and YET fooked up when it came to packing it? And then choosing to send it by USPS? A guitar he recognises is rare and expensive and not replaceable??? It doesn't fooking square with me. It is a rare egg- curate's, at this point-and I am going to send it to you in the post packed in a cardboard box...Yes, that sounds like a good plan.
Gibson bills $2500 to replace the neck and partially refinish the guitar on a Les Paul Historic. And it still takes a hit on the resale market. On a rare limited edition $10 000 Gibson archtop the cost of a re-neck may be $3500 or more. And you still take a hit on the resale because 1) it is no longer original and colllectors pay for original condition so its collectibility value is almost gone; 2) it is seen as a repaired guitar; that automatically shaves off 50% of true market value at the very least. Does not matter if the break is made invisible; he seems to imply that an invisible repair causes little devaluation in true market value. Utter bollocks again. True market value is not what you want to ask for it but what a reasonable someone would want to pay for it. The dealer may seem polite because he is angling for you to take a solution that causes least harm to him.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-03-2018 at 02:32 AM.
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Yep, the reason the dealer wants the OP to keep the guitar and get it fixed is that the dealer wants the buyer to take it in the shorts instead of himself. He broke the guitar and- if it was on consignment, as many guitars being sold by dealers are- he's on the hook to the previous owner for the full contracted amount. If he bought it from Gibson for retail sale, he's on the hook for the wholesale price. Even if the dealer takes it back and fixes it, he'll pay $2500-3000 for that and only be able to sell it for $5000 tops, probably less. With what he either owes/owed Gibson or the prior owner, this is a huge loss. Basically he'll probably be out $10,000 rather than ahead $2000-3000 like he'd planned.
Dude should learn how to pack a guitar for shipping, eh? Save him a lot of trouble and money.
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Badger, I feel for you and I hope that this works out for you. The hard part about this situation is that the dealer's ineptitude and stupidity are not illegal. It's not as cut and dried as if the dealer took your money and sent nothing. This makes the legal route a bit more difficult than it might be. However, it won't be impossible and it is definitely the next move you should make, and soon.
Assuming that you have documentation of the sale, including pictures that show the item for sale in unbroken condition, your case for getting a full refund is clear cut. The seller should refund your money in full without further delay, and his interactions with his insurance company are none of your concern. You need not be patient; you have already been too patient and too nice about this whole thing. Get a US-based attorney and file a claim for at least the entire $10,000 if not a bit more for your inconvenience, distress, and legal fees. You can save money by contacting a legal clinic instead of an expensive law firm. This is not a complex case that requires stellar representation. Its a simple case of not getting what you paid for.
Filing suit will set a deadline for resolution and it will force the seller to evaluate whether he wants to lose even more money by having to hire his own attorney only to lose in court anyway. Until then, talk is cheap and the dealer bears no penalty for delay tactics.
The other thing you need to do is to contact some local news media. Many of the TV stations here in the US have consumer complaint departments who specialize in naming and shaming. When that dealer gets a call from the TV station he is likely to have a sudden change of heart about making things right. He won't want every TV viewer in the local area to hear about how he stiffed you and gave you the runaround.
You might also consider contacting NAMM (National Association of Music Merchants) and the local musicians' union in the nearest large city to that dealer. This won't give you any legal standing or leverage, but it'll get the bad news to *everyone* who should know, and in a hurry. Because people talk at the gig and on the show floor. Your story will spread like wildfire and this dealer's reputation - and business - will suffer.
This dealer has caused you pain and cost you money. It's time to give him some of his own medicine.
And when you do decide to reveal, I'm sure the members of this forum will help spread the word. There's just no reason this should have happened. Not any of it. Stop being so nice about it - can you imagine doing to anyone else what this dealer has done to you? Of course not. This is all the proof you need that the dealer's intentions are not honorable. Get tough with them, and do it now.
Best of luck, and please keep us posted on the situation.
SJ
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So sad that it has become risky business to buy a guitar in today's world. It's the responsibility of the seller to pack, ship, and insure product so that the buyer receives as advertised. It's unfortunate when this sort of thing happens, but it does, and more often than any of us would like. When it does, the insurer wants to deal with the seller not the buyer. Today we talk layers and loopholes. Why can't people just do the right thing?
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Send the seller an email and or text message with a link to this thread and tell him to get prepared for his worst nightmare if you don't get your money. Tell him you'll expose his Bullsh@t business contact info to this forum. He'll be hearing 'Darn that Dream' ringing in his head.
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What do you mean it doesn’t help? Maybe someone here knows the dealer personally and can intercede on his behalf. Maybe someone has had a similar experience and can share what worked and what didn’t. Maybe someone has some knowledge about this particular vendor that could help. That’s the point of sharing the story, isn’t it? To tap into our collective knowledge, community, and experiences. But why cripple that effort by not giving key pieces of information? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I can also add as an attorney who litigates, our courts (at least in the major metropolitan areas I’ve worked) are not really set up for resolving small disputes. There is no hard and fast rule, but my own constantly evolving rule of thumb is that if there isn’t at least $50,000 at play it probably isn’t worth litigating. Truthfully, even that seems low.
In some jurisdictions there are small claims courts where the procedural rules are simpler and no one is allowed attorneys. But that probably won’t help someone who lives thousands of miles away.
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Quite true, but in my years as a practicing attorney, I have found that a letter to a small dispute tortfeasor can sometimes get things resolved for a long distance plaintiff. Often for a fee of a few hundred dollars (perhaps I never charged enough?) I was able to get some justice for my clients. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Your 50K rule probably makes sense unless some statute exists providing for prevailing party attorney fees. And even then, one must make sure that sufficient assets exist to collect upon a judgment. Paying thousands of dollars to obtain an uncollectable judgment is the ultimate good money after bad scenario.
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As an attorney, you should know audi alteram partem. I do not want the OP to walk into a situation where he may see a suit for defamation or complicate matters for him. The court of public opinion is not going to help but may make it worse. Let him resolve it amicably if he can. If you are curious, PM him. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Maybe there is a genie in your bottle of maybes...
*Just in case it has not set off a lightbulb in that noggin of yours, naming and shaming is a trump card to be played when all attempts at amicable resolution fails. Name and shame, you have played your hand too early and lose sny leverage you may have had. And you would only do that under advice of a lawyer. You don't want a defamation suit on your hands. The dealer knows who the OP is and where he lives. We don't. I hope you are a better guitarmaker than you are as an attorney. They just let in anybody who applies these days, don't they?Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-03-2018 at 03:20 PM.
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This whole thing makes me sick.
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Jabs, you make some really good points.
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And I hope you learn some humility before you make a bigger fool of yourself. You talk with all the experience and knowledge of an old lady on a stoop. Defamation suit? You really have no idea what that would entail. Defamation is probably the most costly and difficult to win litigation out there, and as rare in real life (as opposed to the novels you must base your knowledge on) as lightening strikes on a sunny day. You think he has leverage from this forum by not naming the vendor? Please. You clearly have an outsized sense of your influence. Someone willing to hold a customer’s $10,000 after they returned the defective merchandise is not worrying about what people on some jazz guitar forum are telling each other. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
But go on. You’re full of advice. And so damn sure of yourself to boot! Tell him more things that randomly enter your noggin.
The only place letting “anyone in” is this forum, and apparently they let in the occasional pompous halfwit spouting off on things they have no actual knowledge or understanding of.
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In the many years that I practiced law, I did have the opportunity (misfortune?) to litigate hundreds of cases. I do not remember ever litigating a defamation suit so the lawyer turned luthier may well be correct as to the rarity of such a suit. But I have negotiated many settlements and one of the first rules to a good negotiation is to not piss the other side off when they have an advantage. All that does is further disadvantage you.
If I was the OP, I would refrain from "name shaming" the dealer until I had exhausted all of my remedies. Why piss off a guy who holds all the cards? The dealer will not be pursuing a defamation case against a guy in another Country but might raise it in a small claims action as a defense (and the likelihood of a guy from Britain pursuing a US small claims case is quite small, though it could be the impetus for a neat vacation, however).
After the deal is complete, as a public service to the rest of us, a bit of name shaming might be in order. Truth is an absolute defense to any defamation action. So no embellishing should be added, no matter how upset one might be.
To the OP: See how angry we are at your predicament? We are starting fights among ourselves. Best of luck to you.
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I just love legal jargon Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Hello everyone. Just want to let you know I have received my refund. What with import charges, shipping costs and the exchange rate fluctuations this has cost me at least £700. Although I agreed to declaring the full value on shipping for insurance purposes I found when the parcel came to me it had a value of only $500 declared. This means I only paid £131 import duties otherwise this could have been a much more expensive situation.
Before I reveal the details which I think you all deserve to know I want to clarify what happened and when.
I shipped the guitar back on the 16th October and emailed the company to let them know. It arrived on the 23rd October but I heard nothing. It was two weeks later on the 30th October after three emails when I finally got a response promising an update from their insurance on 2nd November. The update never came and I contacted them again that day. I was told on 3rd November they would give me the refund. They tried to do the refund on the 5th November but I forgot to give them the name of my bank. It came through on the 6th November.
So it was a two week silence from the guitar leaving the UK before I got any communication, then a further two weeks wait for the refund.
It was the breakdown of communication that upset me the most. Had I been told that I would get my refund and provided with a date then I would have quite happily waited a few weeks. Although the owner was travelling that's not much of an excuse for ignoring my emails.
I don't see why I should have to front the £700 costs for a situation that was not caused by me. I did not return the guitar because I changed my mind but because it was damaged which significantly affected its value and more importantly rendered it unusable. However the choice put to me was keep it and have it repaired and be compensated by the insurance or to return it for a refund minus the shipping costs. In the end I felt it was better to lose a little than lose a lot and my wife didn't think it was worth pursuing.
The guitar was a left handed Gibson Super 400 CES made in 2015. I might never see another one.
I certainly won't do business again with Dale Rabiner of DHR Guitar Experience in Cincinnati. They are free to give their version of events but I have gone to great lengths to give a fair, balanced and accurate account. Dale is very polite and professional to speak to. He is not a bad person but when things went wrong I was disappointed how the situation played out.
If you want to see some photos of the guitar please see here:
Super 400 CES Left Handed - Damaged - Album on Imgur
The shots of the case with bubble wrap inside are what I did on preparation for the return, not how it arrived to me.
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badgerotoole, thanks for the update.
The incident shows that it is necessary to discuss and demand proper packing with/from sellers. There are too many out there who ignore the fact that a guitarcase in a factory box is not enough protection for a valuable guitar.
Probably one should also include potential additional losses like customs fees in the amount which the insurance covers.
Too bad that besides all the frustration the incident caused you to loose the £700 - what a nightmare!
I hope you soon find another enjoyable instrument which will compensate you for what happened here.
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Those pictures are tragic. A absolutely great guitar ruined. Very sorry for your loss both monetary and the loss of a very special guitar. A very bitter ordeal.
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Yeah- a very unfortunate situation. Glad you received the refund. Looks like a gorgeous guitar. Dale specializes in left handed guitars and I’m actually surprised about your communication issue - DHR is a reputable dealer and well connected. But when things go wrong - it’s stressful for both parties.
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Steve is right. Lose/Lose on both sides of the fence. Shipping guitars is just plain flat out risky but unfortunately this is the world we live in now. Internet sales. A dice roll every time no matter how well you pack the instrument.
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Indeed, between the risks of shipping and misrepresentation (which sometimes happens due to malfeasance and other times happens due to misfeasance), buying guitars sight unseen is risky. I have been burned a few times and am done with this type of risk. I would rather spend the money traveling to get a guitar. If I do not like the guitar, all is not lost as I have gotten a road trip for my dollars. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
This whole situation could have been worse. Good luck to the OP in his quest for a southpaw L-5!
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I have to agree with you. And also the dealer might do very well so it's not necessarily a loss on both sides. It really depends on how the insurance company views it. If it's ruled in his favor he will get the shipping costs refunded along with damage cost and depreciation of value. If he has a good relationship with his shipper It could work out just fine for him. This post could have had a very different tone if this guy would have bothered to communicate. A business is judged in how they handle failures more than the successes. His responsibility to deliver as advertised period. Originally Posted by badgerotoole
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