D’Angelico copy Baker

[deacon Mark]

I see this Victor Baker D’angelico copy at Gruhns. Anyone played one? Looks nice price not outrageous.AR4609 Victor Baker D'Angelico replica # 89 2004

[vinnyv1k]

Nice axe for sure.

[Greentone]

Go, VB. Nice tribute.

[Woody Sound]

Looks like a one-piece back. That's one big-honkin' plank of flame maple!

[Stringswinger]

Fair price. Back before the Arizona Iced Tea folks bought the rights to the DA trademark, GHS strings charged luthiers $3000 for the rights to make and sell these replicas. This guitar probably sold new for double the current price.

[Jabberwocky]

2004 seems kinda early for Victor Baker, isn't it? 2014 is more like it. That Gruhn's offers it for $5000 really implies that you would have a hard time getting back more than $4000 for it on your own.

I love Victor Baker's small archtop guitars priced for the working musicians. Unpretentious and functional jazz boxes. Keenly priced once upon a time. Victor is not seen as a traditional guitar craftsman though. He uses CNC and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a guitar properly made from CNC functionally but it carries along with it an appropriate price tag for CNC made. Such is the rationality or irrationality of the buying market.

In other words, well-constructed though the guitar may be, "handmade by a competent lutheir" is more highly valued than "CNC machine assisted and assembled by a highly competent maker".

Guitars are not investments. Still, being gearhounds always in search of the next guitar, we like to preserve the amount of money we pay for a guitar as much as possible in order that our next purchase be more easily attained.

If I were to put this Baker D'Angelico against a Gibson L5 Wes Montgomery for $5000, I am more likely to get my $5000 back when I sell the Gibson L5 Wes Montgomery than a Victor Baker D'Angelico.

For anyone interested, my estimate of its market value is $3500 to $4000. If you need to sell it in a hurry, $4000 might be the best offer you are going to get. It is a buyer's market, for the most part, and it is not kind. Still, if you manage to extract enjoyment for it for the next five years, and you paid $5000. that is rent of $200 a year. Not too bad if you enjoy it. Pity the person who bought it brand new because that fellow suffers the biggest haircut. Was it $18 000 MSRP originally? That means a street price close to $10080. Note that an $18 000 Bob Benedetto made 18" L'Omaggio was hammered down for $4000 in that February 2015 Guernsey's auction; buyer paid $5000 after 25% Buyer's Premium. Just to put a bit of perspective on this.

In my very very humble and possibly wrong estimation.

[sgosnell]

The usual way to get a piece of wood that size is by using laminations. You can easily get veneer-thin sheets of large size off a smallish log.

[mr quick]

Great looking guitar, but I wish things could just be left be. D'Angelico was something, and Victor Baker is its own thing. Why come together for this simulacrum?
Don't get me started on relics...

[sgosnell]

Why? Easy answer - money. Victor Baker needed to make a living, and this was a way to do it. After he made a name for himself, he could afford to build in his own style. But everyone has to put food on the table and shoes on the children somehow. There are many worse ways to do it.

[Stringswinger]

2004 seems kinda early for Victor Baker, isn't it? 2014 is more like it. That Gruhn's offers it for $5000 really implies that you would have a hard time getting back more than $4000 for it on your own.

I love Victor Baker's small archtop guitars priced for the working musicians. Unpretentious and functional jazz boxes. Keenly priced once upon a time. Victor is not seen as a traditional guitar craftsman though. He uses CNC and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a guitar properly made from CNC functionally but it carries along with it an appropriate price tag for CNC made. Such is the rationality or irrationality of the buying market.

In other words, well-constructed though the guitar may be, "handmade by a competent lutheir" is more highly valued than "CNC machine assisted and assembled by a highly competent maker".

Guitars are not investments. Still, being gearhounds always in search of the next guitar, we like to preserve the amount of money we pay for a guitar as much as possible in order that our next purchase be more easily attained.

If I were to put this Baker D'Angelico against a Gibson L5 Wes Montgomery for $5000, I am more likely to get my $5000 back when I sell the Gibson L5 Wes Montgomery than a Victor Baker D'Angelico.

For anyone interested, my estimate of its market value is $3500 to $4000. If you need to sell it in a hurry, $4000 might be the best offer you are going to get. It is a buyer's market, for the most part, and it is not kind. Still, if you manage to extract enjoyment for it for the next five years, and you paid $5000. that is rent of $200 a year. Not too bad if you enjoy it. Pity the person who bought it brand new because that fellow suffers the biggest haircut. Was it $18 000 MSRP originally? That means a street price close to $10080. Note that an $18 000 Bob Benedetto made 18" L'Omaggio was hammered down for $4000 in that February 2015 Guernsey's auction; buyer paid $5000 after 25% Buyer's Premium. Just to put a bit of perspective on this.

In my very very humble and possibly wrong estimation.

Jabbs, you are very correct about much of this.

The replicas made in 2004 would have been made by Michael Lewis. The early replicas were made by Arturo Valdez, then Michael Lewis and later replicas were made by Gene Baker (in California) and the last of them (perhaps still available?) were made by Gene Baker. As replica number 36 was made in 2007, this one was made in 2014 or later. I remember seeing the Victor Baker replicas advertised for 20K, but I would bet they sold for less. There were also some replicas (25 total) made by Jim Triggs and JP Moats (two former Gibson master luthiers) in the 90's under the D'Angelico II name (I own one as do a couple of forum members and a friend in SF owns another). I did not know that Victor Baker used a CNC machine, but I would hope that all final carving was done by hand.

While I think 5K is a fair price for this guitar from a dealer, 4K is probably the best we could hope for as private sellers. And indeed, A Gibson L-5 will be a better 'investment" (though I am not thinking any high end archtop is a good investment moving forward), but it is a different animal altogether.

One would think Gruhn guitars would have the date of this guitar better dialed in. After all, they are supposed to be the experts.

[QAman]

To answer Marks question - I have played a Victor Baker DA clone at Music Zoo approx 2 years ago. I thought it was a very well made guitar. It felt good and had a whiff of that DA sound (was rather quiet though ) - but at the initial asking price ( at the time) of 25k, which was quickly reduced to 18k seemed ridiculous. In fact - I thought who in their right mind , with any knowledge of this market would even consider this purchase at these price points. The guitar did eventually sell - and Garrett at TMZ could shed some light on selling price for those interested.

Both jabs and SS have provided the facts behind these clones - and many posts have been created ( expressing opinions ) about these iterations of the originals - so I won’t add to that here.

For someone looking for the carved VB version of the DA clones - you might be pleasantly surprised - and could easily get a good deal on this with basic negotiating skills.

Just don’t loose sight of the exit strategy before making the final decision .

[Jabberwocky]

Thank you for the update, QAMan. Wow, it had an original list of $25 000? $18 000 was the "discounted" price? Wow Ow. What a haircut!

Having an exit strategy is the right approach. My exit strategy says that if I were looking for a make-believe D'Angelico with its make-believe cosmetics I would be better off looking for Vestax D'Angelicos for under $3000.

Jim Triggs made a few D'Angelico New Yorkers in the early 90s under contract. If not sounding like a D'Angelico NY, those would sound no worse than the Super 400Cs Jim made during his tenure at the Gibson Custom Shop. In other words, excellent 18" carved archtop sound.

Heritage made a few under contract; they sound like Heritage with D'Angelico cosmetics.

Maybe Mr Wu-I am just a culturally unaware man in the outback of China contactable by carrier pigeon but accept Paypal-might want to try his hand at one for one "Wei, wei, you Mr. John D'Angerico?". It will at least be handcarved. But who knows? CNC is cheap these days but you won't expect a culturally unaware no internet nous but accept Paypal man to hear about CNC.

[rpguitar]

Victor Baker did not make this D'A copy before he made a name for himself. It was quite the opposite:

Victor Baker & D'Angelico

My First D’Angelico New Yorker » Inside Victor Baker's Shop

[QAman]

Thank you for the update, QAMan. Wow, it had an original list of $25 000? $18 000 was the "discounted" price? Wow Ow. What a haircut!

Having an exit strategy is the right approach. My exit strategy says that if I were looking for a make-believe D'Angelico with its make-believe cosmetics I would be better off looking for Vestax D'Angelicos for under $3000.

Jim Triggs made a few D'Angelico New Yorkers in the early 90s under contract. If not sounding like a D'Angelico NY, those would sound no worse than the Super 400Cs Jim made during his tenure at the Gibson Custom Shop. In other words, excellent 18" carved archtop sound.

Heritage made a few under contract; they sound like Heritage with D'Angelico cosmetics.

Maybe Mr Wu-I am just a culturally unaware man in the outback of China contactable by carrier pigeon but accept Paypal-might want to try his hand at one for one "Wei, wei, you Mr. John D'Angerico?". It will at least be handcarved. But who knows? CNC is cheap these days but you won't expect a culturally unaware no internet nous but accept Paypal man to hear about CNC.

Jabs,
I agree with your sentiment. If I was looking for a DA clone my search would begin with the Vestax, then Triggs - maybe a Michael Lewis ( if the price is right). Anything beyond that would require careful consideration.

I remember going to the Dallas guitar show with Jim D’Aquisto in the early nineties and we stopped at Triggs both and played his early DAngelico clones. Jimmy D said they were fine guitars - and told Jim Triggs to put his own name on the headstock - and to never use D’Angelicos name.

I’ve owned several Triggs DA clones and most were very convincing with capturing the essence of the real DA sound. The Victor Baker I played at TMZ was quiet nice as well - and worth making an offer at the right price for those interested.

[Stringswinger]

Thank you for the update, QAMan. Wow, it had an original list of $25 000? $18 000 was the "discounted" price? Wow Ow. What a haircut!

Having an exit strategy is the right approach. My exit strategy says that if I were looking for a make-believe D'Angelico with its make-believe cosmetics I would be better off looking for Vestax D'Angelicos for under $3000.

Jim Triggs made a few D'Angelico New Yorkers in the early 90s under contract. If not sounding like a D'Angelico NY, those would sound no worse than the Super 400Cs Jim made during his tenure at the Gibson Custom Shop. In other words, excellent 18" carved archtop sound.

Heritage made a few under contract; they sound like Heritage with D'Angelico cosmetics.

Maybe Mr Wu-I am just a culturally unaware man in the outback of China contactable by carrier pigeon but accept Paypal-might want to try his hand at one for one "Wei, wei, you Mr. John D'Angerico?". It will at least be handcarved. But who knows? CNC is cheap these days but you won't expect a culturally unaware no internet nous but accept Paypal man to hear about CNC.

Jabbs, your clever retort in that post to Mr. Wu's defenders had me laughing. Their defense of him in the fake Campy clone bordered on mendacity.

Here are some thoughts of my own on the subject of D'Angelico replicas:

The Vestax copies are not carved, they are solid wood pressed top and back guitars. And while those with a Vestax label were (sort of) licensed, many of those Japanese made copies were made without a license. Those unlicensed examples are no better than Mr. Wu's Campy from an ethical standpoint (oops, there I go again letting my White privilege show). But buying a Vestax in the high $2000's will provide a player with a good exit plan. I have never played one of these and have no idea how they play and sound.

The Triggs examples should indeed sound like a Gibson Super 400C, after all, Triggs built quite a few of them. I would not pay any more for a Triggs DA clone than I would for a hand carved Triggs archtop that says Triggs on the headstock. I have only played one Triggs New Yorker and was very underwhelmed. Perhaps the one I played was a dud (certainly explaining why it was for sale in a music store). Others have opined that Triggs makes a fine archtop. I hope to play one someday.

I am unsure about the Valdez, Gene Baker and Victor Baker copies having never played one. Valdez was a classical guitar maker and Gene Baker is a solid body maker. Not the sort of skill sets that I would look for in a maker of a hand carved archtop. Victor Baker? Like Triggs, I would not want to pay more than his own archtops sell for in the used market.

I did play a Michael Lewis DA copy and was quite impressed (I was outbid on it, otherwise, I would own that guitar today). But again, I was only willing to pay what a used Lewis archtop was worth. Someone else was willing to pay a premium and they (not I) got to own that guitar.

That brings us to Heritage. I have played many hand carved Heritage archtops and have found all of them to be too bright for my taste. And yet, I obtained (and still own) one of the Heritage DA's, one that was previously owned by two well esteemed members of this forum. And while I am somewhat opposed to the whole idea of D'Angelico replicas, my guitar is a pretty superb hand carved archtop. The videos put out by Max405 while he owned my DA copy and the price he offered it to me (the same going price for a Heritage Super Eagle went for at that time) convinced me to pull the trigger, and I am glad that I did. It is my understanding that my guitar was built by JP Moats, a luthier who worked for Gibson in their Pre-Norlin days. JP wanted to make the DA copy sound more like a DA than a Heritage so he carved the top thicker even though he did use Heritage Super Eagle molds to construct the guitar. Now I also own three genuine D'Angelicos. The Heritage copy does not sound like those (Perhaps it has a "whiff" of that sound to use QAman's term). The Heritage DA does sound, to my ear, like an early 60's Gibson Super 400C (as it should since JP Moats likely built many of those). The Gibson, not to mention a real D'Angelico New Yorker with cutaway would have cost me far more than I paid for the Heritage DA copy, so I am pleased with my purchase. I wish that the DA replica thing had never happened, but it did, and I am glad to have this beautiful guitar in my harem. For now at least. The real DA's will be sold by my heirs. The Replica? Time will tell. I always balance my distaste for the replicas against the fine sound, playablity and tone of my Heritage DA when playing her. It is like having a beautiful girlfriend, who is great in bed, but who also cheats on you.

Gruhn has one of the Heritage DA replicas for sale for $6500. It has sat there for two years at that price, as it should. That is too much. $5000 would be a better price point, as that, IMO, is top dollar retail for one of these guitars, and is probably more than we private sellers could ever hope to realize on our own.

If resale and exit strategy are of the utmost importance, one should consider buying a $300 Artcore. The most one will lose in that case is $300. IMO, the long term outlook for high end archtops is not good. Market saturation combined with changing tastes (and demographics) paints a bleak picture.

[vinnyv1k]

I bought a new Vestax DANY in 2004. I paid $3K for it. Yes it was pressed with a poly finish but the build quality was the best I have seen. For a replica that is about the max I would pay. The Japan made models were stellar IMO. My only dislike was the 25.5 with 22 frets. The neck felt too long for me. I like 20 frets. Something about 22 frets throws me off. I had a 1992 ES350T same thing. The only 22 fret guitar I like is the Byrdland because of the short scale.
You can get a nice Vestax these days for well under $3K. They are fine replicas.
If you are spending $5K get a L5 or a Campellone. Replicas almost feels like cheating at least to me.

When I sold my DAQNY I was thinking about one of those Aria copies but knew Jimmy was watching from above.
A Fender DAQ would be fine as Jimmy had his hand in it.
To me a replica is almost like disrespecting the original builder. It is fine to steal build ideas as everyone does but exact copy catting isn’t right IMO.

[deacon Mark]

I have played a Triggs DA copy first one at the Dallas show in early 1990's. The workmanship was first class and guitar felt ok but I do not feel like it was a real sound generator. Not bad as such but I was underwhelmed. I played maybe 2 other Trigg's DA'S he made and somewhat the same feeling. In light of that I have played a number of Triggs made guitars of all sorts. He is a fine craftsman and work is well done. I have heard of issues with maybe lacquer checking on the finishes of his guitars but that could just be individual to the environment. Jim is a fine fellow and you will not go wrong with his guitars. From a personal standpoint I would not seek one unless the price was just out of this world.

At this point in buying any archtop guitar your best bet is an L5 or Super400 off the self with the normal appointments. Those are the most sellable down the line and least likely to hang in shops for years waiting to be sold. This pretty much includes all boutique builders and the real exceptions we all know have huge price tags now and seldom seen for sale ie. Monteleone.

I have played 2 of the Heritage DA copies and they just did not do much for me and certainly were not a D'angelico sound from the original perspective. I would not mind having one but again the price would need to be a killer say less than $4200. Not played the Michael Lewis copies but his prices are crazy might as well buy and original D'a and be done with it.

Now to the Vestage copies I have played a number of them and they are consistent. I own a Blond Vestage made in 2002 I believe I bought it new back then. This is the NY4 18 inch and yes it is a press top but sounds fine. To my ears not huge difference in this compare to Heritage and the neck is outstanding. The workmanship every but as good as Heritage. Mine has pretty good volume and can easily work as a true acoustic as it is since the floating pickup. Bronze strings and little higher action and you are good to go. These are around 3k$ these days and can be had for less. A pretty good deal but again for some more cash you are better off going Gibson.

So now we come the real D'angelico's and the two that I currently own are simply in another class. There is a depth of sound that simply does not exist in any copy I have heard yet. One might say I am biased and look with the eyes and intellect not my ears. To this I will simply say that in my over 30 years with these 2 guitars I just know what I hear.

Now I have also owned 4 other D'angelicos. A 19 inch ( almost 18 3/4) New Yorker I sold a number of years ago. I have also own one Style A from 1945 and a Style B from 1938, and had an Excel from 1953. I trade the Excel to get the 1953 big New Yorker. Of those D'a the Excel was the quietest but had a very even and warm sound. The Style B from 1938 was a killer guitar and wish I had not sold it but it was during Lent in my Diaconate Formation and I had to let go of material things. The big New Yorker was a dream and I owned for 20 years and then said that same Lent...…..it had to go. In retrospect it was a good move as this was before the huge drop in prices selling it help a few things out for sure.

So to the story none of the copies are as such D'angelicos in the real and none really to close in sound. I think some of the reason is you cannot compare guitars from different era's anymore than you can compare great baseball players from different era's. Ted Williams may have been the best hitter ever but the game is played differently today than in 1960. The whole copy thing at times gets my curiosity but really after awhile it fads and left back to square one.

So for me the comparison that is valid and in my opinion maybe the real sound comparison is a Super 400 from the D'angelico period. I have played many of these acoustics both cutaways and non that had the vibe. They were not D'as but the sound vibe my ear hears says they get to the heart and ears. Sure there are maybe duds but Gibson did not put out too many duds in the late 1930 and 1940s. Once you get to about 1960 then things change, but not sure exactly why. The ones made after about 1970 belong to the "no longer able to compare due to different era" logic I use.

[Max405]

I just love the LOOK of a D’Angelico Guitar.
Artistically speaking, it’s no wonder that they’ve been copied so much. They are beautiful in every way.
As for the sound, it’s hard for me judge because you can’t really hear them when they are being played on your lap. But my wife told me once that my old 35 Excel sounded like it had voices in it. I asked my dick next door neighbor to play a few chords on my guitar once and it did sound full, not loud, but clean and well, perfect. Kinda like my GJS sounds.
I played the GJS this morning.
I really don’t want to sell that guitar..
Joe D

[Papawooly]

I asked my dick next door neighbor to play a few chords on my guitar once

I used to have one of those..

[hot ford coupe]

I just love the LOOK of a D’Angelico Guitar.

That's the reason I got the copies in the first place. You just gotta love that Art Deco vibe. I have two Vestax copies, one blond and the other sunburst and I just can't take my eyes off them. They're not perfect copies but close enough for the visual effect but far enough so no one can pass it off as an original.

[neatomic]

I remember going to the Dallas guitar show with Jim D’Aquisto in the early nineties and we stopped at Triggs both and played his early DAngelico clones. Jimmy D said they were fine guitars - and told Jim Triggs to put his own name on the headstock - and to never use D’Angelicos name.

boy would jimmy d be saddened these days.."d'angelico" asian factory made cutaway acoustic flatops being sold as deal of the day for 300$...

as rodney dangerfield stated so beautifully...no respect!

cheers