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I’ve gotten some interest in showing how Herb Ellis recommended adjusting the neck pickup poles. I made a quick video yesterday and got it uploaded today. It’s definitely become my preferred method. I think, despite what one might think when looking at the pickup post-adjustment, that the resulting volume is very even across the strings and yields a very nice woody tone, more true to the guitar’s non-amplified tone.
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10-04-2018 04:26 PM
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I remember Herb's ES-175--played it. GREAT guitar.
Nice clip on adjustment of a Gibson pickup. Thanks.
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Thanks ThatRhythmMan!
Q1: you compare mainly at 5th and 7th fret. how does it relate to different registers? if you'd compare at 12th fret, would it still be even?
Q2: how does the amp effect the settings? Did you ever crosscheck/compare using another amp?
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I can't wait to try this on my 175
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interesting but completely subjective..what herb could hear...( he obviously wasn't hearing his hi E string (329hz) too well!!
and against what most pickup techs would ever do!! when was the last time you saw any guitar or pickup manufacturer set up a pickup like that???...never!
really depends on what was goin on with herbs particular guitar...what strings..(he wasn't using thomastiks his whole career..maybe at the very end!!)..& who knows how weak the pickups bar magnets were on his 175??
in general you want to move the pickup up and down and then fine tune with the polepiece screws....they aren't magnets..just screws...so all that extreme up and down stuff is kinda ridiculous...
again, interesting vid, but please dont all go and adjust your own guitars like that..thinking herb knew some magical way...
cheers
ps- having your E polepiece that high is a good way of having it catch on (& break) the string in the middle of your high powered solo
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A1 - In my experience, it remains very even across and up and down the frets. I just find it preferable to pick a spot on the neck to fret, rather than using open strings.
Originally Posted by JazzNote
A2 - I haven’t noticed a difference with them amps I use. Of course, the vast majority of my playing at home is on one of three amps built by Michael Clark (the 5FA-8 used in this video, a 5F11, and a 5F6-A, so all Fender Tweed clones), although I use a Fractal AX-8 for gigging. It works well across all of these.
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Thank you, ThatRhythmMan, for this video.
For those unfamiliar with Herb's talk about this, it's near the end of his instructional video (now DVD), Swing Jazz Soloing and Comping.
Amazon.com: Herb Ellis: Swing Jazz Soloing and Comping: Tim Landers: Movies & TV
The purpose was to have equal (or nearly so) volume from all six strings. Herb was picky about that.
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Neatomic, Originally Posted by neatomic
Like I say in the video, it’s unconventional. I certainly agree with you there. It’s all about the achieved tone though. I don’t adjust a bridge pickup this way, but the individual poles seem to have less effect there. Herb played guitar at a level I will never reach for longer than I’ve been alive and his guitars always had the right sound. I’ve been very happy with the results I’ve gotten in other guitars.
I also agree about setting your pickup height, which I didn’t cover in the video. I was only focused on the pole adjustments.
Theoretically, I think this should be applicable no matter what strings or humbucker variation one is using. However, the poles would require readjustment if the string gauge or type were changed. I’ve tried it with round wound strings and made this adjustment on P90 pickups as well. The poles end up at differing heights among the guitars, but works the same.
Everyone has different opinions on how to adjust pickups, although I think most just leave them as they came from the factory (in other words, unadjusted).
Lastly, if done correctly, there is no way your sting will hit the high e pole screw unless you miss the end of the fingerboard completely when you go for that high d note.
I appreciate your thoughts, but for now this method is working for me and I just wanted to share with those who were interested.
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What's totally weird is that I just put a Seth Lover in my Epiphone Zephyr Regent, and was tweaking it merely by making ad-hoc adjustments as I played it. The result is almost identical to what you end up with here. It's like I backed into Herb's method.
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The screws aren't magnets, but they do conduct magnetic fields from the magnets, just as if they were magnets. The adjustments in the video are similar to what my pickups are set to, and I find that the pickup height doesn't make a lot of difference in the polepiece adjustment, it just changes the sound as it goes up and down, but the string balance remains relatively close. I might make a quarter or half turn of a polepiece or so, but seldom more than that. I'm a tweaker, and probably make more adjustments of all sorts than really necessary, but that's the way I am. If the polepieces are all even, I guarantee that the string volume balance will be very inconsistent, regardless of the strings. IME, the high E and G string polepieces always need to be higher, and the B and low E string polepieces need to be much lower. The A and D tend to be somewhere in the middle, depending on the string composition. But that's just my preference, and everyone is free to adjust as they like, or not.
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i mean there's no harm it trying right?
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Not so weird , my poles are like that too ... Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I found its just what you gotta do to get equal (ish)
perceived volume from each string ...
Do you slope the whole pickup lower on the bass side too ?
like Herb did .... I do that too
(I'm using TI jazz swings)
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Just about every Gibson Archtop I have ever owned the high E and G poles had to be raised and the B lowered.
Guilds were a different story but still needed pole tweaking. I think a lot has to do with who made the pickup but those pole screws are there for that very reason. This is why I do not like the BJB pu or any pu for that matter without pole screws.
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I absolutely do it, adjusted to my picking and strings of course.
Makes a noticeable difference.
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Yes, I do the same, just a little. Originally Posted by pingu
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Pole piece adjustment is important not only to Herb Ellis, so let's get the facts straight. The pole piece pattern mostly depends on the string set. (The resonance of the individual guitar and the condition of the string slots also play a role. As well as the frequency response of the pickup in combination with the amp/speaker). Don't forget the option to slant the pickup by raising/lowering it on one side. Also don't forget the magnetic pull; If a string gets too close to the pole, the magnetic field will disturb the string movement causing a warbling sound with shorter sustain.
(But do forget about false advice that the poles should follow the radius of the strings, or any old myth that the screw slots have to present some weird pattern. The radius does have some impact, but it shouldn't be used as basis for pickup adjustment.)
The basic principle is that a plain string generates a stronger signal than a wound string of the same gauge and that heavier gauge generates a stronger signal than a lighter gauge.
The default setting and the starting point for further adjustments is shown below (a wound G requires the pole to be set higher than when using a plain G):
E B Gp D A E
¨¨ --- __ ¨¨ --- __
E B Gw D A E
¨¨ --- ¨¨ ¨¨ --- __
(Single coils respond in a similar way, but are more sensitive. Also the tone gets thinner the higher the pole)
If you use an unbalanced string set, for example when replacing the E and B with higher gauge "to avoid the plinky sound" as reported by some members, you would have to lower those pole pieces for even output. If you replaced the high E with lighter gauge (that was widely popular in the 60s ) you would have to raise the pole for the high E.
Tip: Before you replace the E and B strings, first adjust the pickups.
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The adjustment pattern does depend on the strings. Steel windings interact differently than nickel, monel, bronze, or whatever, and all are different. The span between steel and bronze windings is large. Plus, different manufacturers use different gauges underneath their wound strings, even though the external diameters may be the same. This affects both the tension and the magnetic effect. Thus almost everyone's polepiece settings should be somewhat different. I just tune them to my ear so the volume is as close as I can get it to the same. Theoretically, using some sort of electronic measuring device to insure the volume is the same would be ideal, but I don't go that far, my ear is accurate enough for me, though perhaps not for others. I also am aware that different frequencies travel further than others, with higher frequencies being attenuated much faster than lower, thus the tone near the amp will be much brighter than what a listener will hear 20 or 50 feet away. Thus setting tone depends on the situation, as does string balance. Mostly, I tend to prefer the treble strings to be slightly louder than the bass, but that changes from time to time.
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I agree with sgosnell. Having said this, I would point out that Herb Ellis' ES-175 is the BEST example of that guitar I have ever laid my hands on. It sounds and plays better--noticeably--than any other 175 in my experience, and I have played scores and scores of them.
It is adjusted darned well.
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I agree. Best 175 ever. Originally Posted by Greentone
Herb let me hold it. Light as a feather. Herb was the man. Anyone that could go toe to toe with Oscar Peterson is one awesome player. IMO Herb’s 175 sounded better than Joe's when they played together.
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+1 vinny1k Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Ellis' guitar sounded superior to Pass'. They were both using Polytones when they appeared together, to it's a valid comparison.
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Here you go.
That's the basic stagger setup by ear for a plain 3rd string set. This applies to both single-coil and humbucker p'ups.
That's the actual stagger from the neck p'up of one of my guitars, with a 12" radius and a 11-50 D'Addario EXL115BT aka Balanced Tension set, which has a thinner 4th and thicker 3rd than "normal".
Physics don't lie...
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I’m gonna try this.
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The difference with a wound G is that the core is the thinnest of all the strings, thus the pole needs to be the highest of all. With a plain G, it's usually the thickest, thus needs to be lower. Different settings for different strings, no question.
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Who doesn’t use a wound G? Kids these days.
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A missed opportunity to play some jazz piano for your listeners!
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