Are acoustic archtops a design failure?

[Greentone]

Funny bit about the banjo, but it WAS king in its day. In bands you had either a tenor or plectrum banjo player (both four-string banjos played with a pick) who played rhythm and took solos.

The four-string tenor and plectrum archtop guitars of the 20s and 30s were created so these banjo players didn't have to give up their tuning intervals and scale-lengths when they switched to the more fashionable guitar as it took over in dance bands.

Some of us on the forum came along playing both tenor (or plectrum) banjo and guitar. If you learned in the 50s/60s, it was still during the careers of people like Eddy Peabody or Don Van Palta ("The Flying Dutchman" of Mickey Finns fame).

Howard Alden is an accomplished tenor banjo player AND a superb jazz guitarist.

[mr. beaumont]

A sincere thanks to those of you who read and discussed instead of telling me my premise is meaningless and then proceeding to talk about something unrelated.

Some very interestING points made all around.

Now, part 2--the Selmer Macaferri is a "failed" design as well...one that only found one repurpose, unlike the archtop, which found many.

[ugarte]

Don't take it too hard, its a "tough room".


. . .but after long consideration, yes.

[oldane]

Me, too!

It was claimed that when Freddie Green switched from his Epiphone to the big Stromberg, listeners could no longer hear him. This ultimately led to his switch to the big Gretsch. Suddenly, Green popped up again in the rhythm section.

If that is true, it took Green a very long time to decide not to use his two Strombergs - 18 years to be exact. He got his Strombergs in 1940 and switched to the Gretsch in 1958.

Another version of the story is that the prices of Strombergs shot up after Elmer Strombergs death in the mid 1950s. Green became increasingly worried about taking his now very costly instruments on the road and eventually landed an endorsement deal with Gretsch who supplied him with the now well known Eldorado. Other guitarists have told that the Gretsch sounded mediocre to begin with but during the first one or two years it either opened up or he learned how to tame it - or both. Now and then he used his Strombergs when recording in New York. After the first day of recording "Ella and Basie" in the 1960s, Green told Ella Fitzgerald that he was so pleased with the session that he would bring his "best guitar" the next day. I guess it was one of the Strombergs.

As for the Epiphone Emperor he used before 1940, he kept it and as shown on a couple of photos he used it - likely as as a spare instrument - at least a few times in the 1950s. At the time of his death he had the Gretsch and the two Strombergs. All roadworn by then.

[deacon Mark]

Jeff,

I read you. The SelMac guitars were not available in the US in the 20s, so the banjo guys couldn't have adopted them in dance orchestras. They could have adopted resonator guitars, of course, but chose the f-hole archtop instead. This was a clear choice of preference. The banjos they gave up were probably louder than either the resonator guitar or the SelMacs that they were unaware of.

Why did the dance band guys/gals gravitate to the archtop? I think Eddie Lang provides much of the answer. It was possible to hear a soloist like Lang on the guitar, whereas if he was using a flattop guitar, no dice.

Now, the same is true of Django on the other side of the pond. Who knows? If the Selmer guitar had been marketed in the US, maybe it would have been broadly adopted.

I, for one, however, prefer the radiused neck and action of the American archtop guitar to the flat, classical-influenced neck of the Selmer-style when playing jazz. It's a bit more of a fight with the instrument.

For an all-around guitar, I don't think I will ever see an instrument that tops my first instructor's D'Angelico. Beautiful and beautiful-sounding instrument. I just don't see how this is any sort of design failure. The D'A is a veritable lap piano.

May I ask who your instructor was who had the D'angelico. I sort of a historian on them and keep track of crazy stuff like who played them.

[Greentone]

My first instructor was in Honolulu in '66-'67. I was enthralled by his D'A. Thinking back, I think it was an Excel.

I am ashamed to admit that after 50+ years, I have forgotten his name.

[omphalopsychos]

Did someone say 16" Prewar Epiphone?

[Greentone]

What a beauty. I can hear it from here.

[Greentone]

That's a hair-part headstock.

[omphalopsychos]

It's a 1935 Broadway. I have to shut it in the closet and close the door to my studio when I'm not playing it because the thing is so damn loud and lively.

[mr. beaumont]

Did someone say 16" Prewar Epiphone?

Old Epis are a special kind of special.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Did someone say 16" Prewar Epiphone?

What a closet queen!

[Jazzstdnt]

Now that you've clicked to ream me out, allow me to explain.

I've recently purchased an inexpensive gypsy jazz guitar, a Cigano...I'm loving the damn thing (and wondering how I survived without a guitar of this style for so long) so of course it's got me to thinking...

This cheap Lil guitar does the original intended job of an arch top much better.

It's a heck of a lot louder than any big bodied arch top I've ever played. It occupies the same general tone spectrum, excelling in upper mids, but it has a fuller bottom end too. And it's loud with reasonable action (a shade under 3mm) not jacked up sky high to gain volume.

So...the acoustic arch tops all the American big band guitar players used...we're they missing out?

Now, before y'all kill me, I do like the sound of an acoustic archtop...and when you get into amplifying, an archtop is clearly superior. The classic jazz tones we all love could not have been made without the archtop...furthermore, archtop can be set up and adjusted much easier, and can be made to play (and still sound good) much easier...

So just regarding the original intent of the instrument...did the Franco-Italian connection get it right the first time?

Nice click bait title. News sites do that a lot too. Here's the rule of thumb that I've observed - whenever there is a question mark in the provocative tag line, the answer is always "no". But people still click and read, at least a little bit.

Forgive me if someone has said this already but I don't think that those big bands wanted the guitar to be very prominent. In fact I think that they still prefer things to be that way, if they have a guitarist at all. When they did/do want the guitar to be prominent they used/use an amplified guitar.

I also think that the sound from a fine archtop is typically more refined than that from a Gypsy guitar. It seems to me that any jazz instrument that is to be played acoustically had better be darned loud. Whatever the situation, the design must have fitness for purpose.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, big band guitar is certainly more felt than heard...I just wondered if that was a chicken/egg deal.

[cosmic gumbo]

I think the whole relevance of acoustic rhythm guitar in a jazz orchestra went away when the double bass started using amplification in the 50's. Even Freddie Green was getting mic'd in most venues at the latter part of his career.

[christianm77]

Now that you've clicked to ream me out, allow me to explain.

I've recently purchased an inexpensive gypsy jazz guitar, a Cigano...I'm loving the damn thing (and wondering how I survived without a guitar of this style for so long) so of course it's got me to thinking...

This cheap Lil guitar does the original intended job of an arch top much better.

It's a heck of a lot louder than any big bodied arch top I've ever played. It occupies the same general tone spectrum, excelling in upper mids, but it has a fuller bottom end too. And it's loud with reasonable action (a shade under 3mm) not jacked up sky high to gain volume.

So...the acoustic arch tops all the American big band guitar players used...we're they missing out?

Now, before y'all kill me, I do like the sound of an acoustic archtop...and when you get into amplifying, an archtop is clearly superior. The classic jazz tones we all love could not have been made without the archtop...furthermore, archtop can be set up and adjusted much easier, and can be made to play (and still sound good) much easier...

So just regarding the original intent of the instrument...did the Franco-Italian connection get it right the first time?

Just a straight up reply before I read everyone else’s posts.

I find my GJ guitar to be very loud and easy-ish to play but sometimes lacking in subtlety.

I feel like I can get more colours out of my Loar. I kind of resent the way everything you play on a sel-Mac sounds like django.

The guitar is a bit softer, but I think more focussed in the midrange.

AFAIK Django had little time for American guitars.

BTW everyone in Europe at that time used selmac guitars because you couldn’t get Gibsons easily, big band guitarists, vocal stars like Al Bowlly etc, Sacha Distel played one.

Now everyone connects the guitar with ‘Gypsy jazz’ as the instrument has become intimately connected with the manouche jazz tradition that grew up after django.

Both types of guitar are though to amplify convincingly without using magnetic pups.

[christianm77]

Nice click bait title. News sites do that a lot too. Here's the rule of thumb that I've observed - whenever there is a question mark in the provocative tag line, the answer is always "no". But people still click and read, at least a little bit.

Forgive me if someone has said this already but I don't think that those big bands wanted the guitar to be very prominent. In fact I think that they still prefer things to be that way, if they have a guitarist at all. When they did/do want the guitar to be prominent they used/use an amplified guitar.

I also think that the sound from a fine archtop is typically more refined than that from a Gypsy guitar. It seems to me that any jazz instrument that is to be played acoustically had better be darned loud. Whatever the situation, the design must have fitness for purpose.

You could have unbelievably loud guitar and still be completely drowned out by a thoughtless drummer with a 21’ ride cymbal. In fact the old acoustic bands had a combination of factors that actually made everything a bit quieter - hide heads, much smaller cymbals, gut strings on the bass, smaller bore trombones etc etc

So the guitar was not prominent as you say, but that’s nothing to do with quieter instruments. Freddie Green was not quiet, smooth or mellow up close whatever he might have sounded like in context.... you just need to have a loud guitar

You’d have the same situation with a sel mac. Trust me, I’ve tried it.

I do think old school rhythm guitar oriented archtops occupy a particular niche in the sonic spectrum. But everyone else needs to know how to play with rhythm guitar, and to be frank, not many do.

[christianm77]

By way of illustration I’m playing pretty loud on a very loud guitar here. The sound tends to disappear into the snare when playing rhythm, I think the archtop would have more midrange weight to it:

BTW I think Matt is demonstrating a good way to play drums with rhythm guitar here - notice he stays off the ride most of the time.

Also re archtops, there’s archtops and there’s archtops obviously.Most modern luthiers are not aiming to recreate Eddie Lang’s L5.

[D.G.]

By way of illustration I’m playing pretty loud on a very loud guitar here. The sound tends to disappear into the snare when playing rhythm, I think the archtop would have more midrange weight to it.

It depends on how the snare is tuned as well. And how the drummer plays, but yes, the Manouche guitar tends to have the same freq. as brushes on a snare, which is why you can ditch drums altogether and still get a good drive.

I listened to another of your tunes on youtube and I think I'll talk to my bass player and ask him to always walk when I solo if I'm the only guitar player. We occasionally play as a trio with a vocalist or as a duo, so I'm looking for ways to keep the drive from disappearing when I solo. I tend to not like doing the chord thing for solos, though it's a fine technique and you sound great doing it!

[christianm77]

It depends on how the snare is tuned as well. And how the drummer plays, but yes, the Manouche guitar tends to have the same freq. as brushes on a snare, which is why you can ditch drums altogether and still get a good drive.

I listened to another of your tunes on youtube and I think I'll talk to my bass player and ask him to always walk when I solo if I'm the only guitar player. We occasionally play as a trio with a vocalist or as a duo, so I'm looking for ways to keep the drive from disappearing when I solo. I tend to not like doing the chord thing for solos, though it's a fine technique and you sound great doing it!

Thanks, that's an interesting point re: snare tuning.... I'll talk to Matt, that's the sort of thing he's quite into researching, TBH, he is one of the most orchestration oriented drummers I've played with - probably comes from his classical background. Most jazz drummers just spaff away on the ride like they are Philly Joe in '58 regardless of the style of music.

Slap is good too, like Bluegrass thing.... I tend not to the chord thing all the time, but it is the best thing sometimes... in this situation (acoustic with drums) I think single notes sound a bit anaemic...

[Hep To The Jive]

A resonator guitar has been mentioned here, so let me do a little demonstration here how loud it can be in a band with a drummer. The clip is from rehearsal when we didn't have a bass player, so it's just a trio sax guitar drums, but trust me it can cut through with a bigger band nicely too.

Not exactly jazz sorry, we call it Jive

[christianm77]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure how many jazz guitarists of the 30s actually played resonators, which seems an obvious solution to the volume problem. Did Teddy Bunn play one?

[christianm77]

The imaginative messrs Reed and Foreman have their own solutions to this perennial conundrururrmrmmrmmrmrrrrrmmuumm

[Hep To The Jive]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure how many jazz guitarists of the 30s actually played resonators, which seems an obvious solution to the volume problem. Did Teddy Bunn play one?

The reason could be the necks are very unusual for jazz. Super wide, with V profile and high action, it doesn't necessarily lead to playing jazz chords easily. I wish National would make a guitar with more or less normal neck and a bridge you can adjust.

[christianm77]

I dunno, jazz guitarists of the 30s didn't really play 'jazz chords' for rhythm. I think it's probably got a lot to do with the sound, doesn't have the same attack/decay characteristics for rhythm... Sound more like an electric, no?

Or in this case a little like a banjo?

It definitely works though, lots of people seem to use them...

I think part of the point of an archtop is that it blends into the snare. The bass blends into the straight 4 kick drum in the same way (which you need an old school bass drum for, BTW.)