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Does it have to be a CES? Could it be an L-4C with a floater? You could choose between a natural and a burst. (I know, you're not the vintage type, but still...)
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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07-14-2015 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
I got used to that 'spot' on my 175, and thought it'd be a real problem getting used to not having it. But there is plenty of travel in the p/u and I have never missed that gap at all. We've all see those surface p/u's that almost touch the strings and had I discovered my L-4 were even close to that, I'd have never kept it.
Funny, by time I noticed it wasn't there, I was already locked in to keeping and playing mine - a lot !!
Good luck.
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Thanks Richard...I've pretty much narrowed it down to a later model. But thanks for the suggestion...I wouldn't know the first thing about buying a vintage archtop, which is why I've never acquired one...I've learned to 'stay in my lane' if you know what I mean? Originally Posted by Eddie Lang
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The acoustic L-4 has a very nice sound, very punchy and clear. With a de Armond is pure bliss but a whole different animal than a L-4 CES. My 1952 L-4 came with a de Armond 1000 but I hardly ever use it as the L-4 is so nice with out it.
My L-4CES is a 2009 with a mahogany back and sides. I have played a laminated maple back and sides but not side to side, so a difference in tone is hard to say. I have been wanting to try a laminated mahogany bodied L-4 against the other styles to check them out but I have not had the opportunity as yet.
Thanks John
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Regarding the "GAP" I once read someone's comment that the reason the pickup was placed at that location was because that was the utmost location to experience the "natural harmonics of the '175." Sounded plausible...but then again I've bought swampland before, so... Originally Posted by grahambop
Sweet '175 Autumn Leaves demo...
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 07-14-2015 at 09:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
From a playability stand point I think the 175 and the L4CES are practically the same guitar ....
but for me the L4CES has a richer, fuller sound ... which I attribute to the solid top
when compared side by side I find the 175 to to be thuddier and less lively ...
but a lot of people seem to love that thuddiness .... so it really is a matter of taste as to which sounds better
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To "thud" or not to thud....is that the question for some? I mean surely it wasn't just it's lower price that kept its popularity so high over the years.
I'm only now experiencing my first laminate in an Aria PE190, and although it's a 17" vs. a 16" box, I'm enjoying the difference of having a less lively top, much less the entire guitar being made of plywood.
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And don't discount the L-4's ebony fingerboard, which also, somehow, adds to the whole L-4 vs 175 sound difference. ( sustain ?? )
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If I'm not mistaken, the L4-CES is a relative latecomer to the jazz guitar party, being introduced in the early-mid '80's, almost 35 years after the 175 debut. So, the 175 was well established on the scene.
I really like ebony fingerboards. Why, oh why, did I ever sell my 347?
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According to Vintage Guitars Info:
The L-4 Acoustic Archtop : Production Years of 1912 - 1956
The L-4 C Prod. Years: 1949 - 1971
The L-4 C " " : 1958, 1969, and then as you noted - the CES from 1987 to present.
The guitar itself is always described by Joe @ Archtop.com as the 'oldest model name in the Gibson catalogue'. Check out his '51 L-4 description that should show up on a search.
Back in the day, ( '60's ) I was out - a lot - listening to the jazz guys around here. I always thought they were all playing 175's until one day one of them told me they were usually L-4's, because that's what the players were always out searching for. Some would put CC P/U's in them.
It got more confusing when the CES's came out 'cause unless you knew the 175's had that gap and L-4's didn't, ( which at the time I didn't ).
But L-4's have been around -the CES was the latecomer, but not the acoustic.
Hope this helps.
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I think the first L-4CES guitars were made in the late 1950s/early 1960s for Sacha Distel, French jazz guitarist and pop crooner. He had an L-5CES with AlNiCo V pickups in '58, then a couple or more L-4CES guitars over the years (as well as a similar model made for him by Jacobacci). Late in his life he played an Ibanez GB guitar with a CC pickup retrofitted into it as well. Like some of the other jazz players based in Europe (René Thomas, Jimmy Gourley), he favoured the single coil sound of the CC (and, in his case, AlNiCo V as well) pickup.
Last edited by Hammertone; 07-16-2015 at 04:13 AM.
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Now that's interesting !! The three photo's that have visible headstocks show the Gibson ' flowerpot' inlay, right ? From your notes, I'd believe the one in top left photo is the L-5 due to the t/p, right ?
Then, one of the other guitars shown has the trapezoid TP. Were those ever used on L-4's ?
The most interesting one for me is the one on the top right. It reminded me of the guitar Jim Hall used and pictured on an album called " It's Nice to be with You in Berlin". He was using 175's a lot by then but this one shows up with the same shape but those L-5 block ebony fingerboard fretmarkers. Never saw one like that either ! At the time this made me think maybe he had more L-4's than I'd thought.
Interesting and thanks !
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It's possible that the guitar in the upper right and lower left corners are the same instrument with swapped out hardware. Or not.
The one in the lower right corner has a different burst pattern.
Upper left is the L-5CES - this guitar has come up for sale recently in France.
Here's an action shot of Distel with his Ibanez GB w/CC added:Last edited by Hammertone; 07-16-2015 at 05:46 PM.
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All the older L-4's had the old style tailpiece with the pointed ends. At least my 1952 does and all the old ones I have seen used this tailpiece. The L-5 style was used on most of the later re-issues. But then there are exceptions to every rule!
Thanks John
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The Jacobacci "Distel Model" - a few versions:
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Loved my 2006 L-4 CES with Mahogany back and of course solid spruce top. Signed inside by Jim Hutchins....
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Archtop.com has a single pickup L4CES. I have a 2014 L4CES Mahogany. One of the best sounding/playing guitars I have ever owned. Perfect neck profile too. The volume balance on the entire neck is unbelievable. Every string has the same volume anywhere on the neck. How often does that happen. Really a sweet tone with the mahogany back and sides. All carved too. Not like the earlier ones that had plywood back and sides. Like the Tal Farlow another sleeper "great axe" from Gibson.
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I totally agree with the notion that if you are really out for a Gibson L4CES, then you should probably go with that. Heritage does, without question, make a great guitar but even if the 575 was a faithful copy of the L4 in question, it still won't be the Gibson L4. If you were looking for an L4 type... then, yeah. I'd recommend the Heritage. That's me though.
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That L4CES is a stunner, if you don't like it when you've set it up ( & with an AB bridge)
I'll eat my hat. These have a superb, fat tone, a fair second to a good L5CES, I only
reluctantly parted with my 2008 model to obtain a long awaited Byrdland, can't have the
cake and eat it! I respectfully suggest a Byrdland neck might not suit your large mitts.
but the L4CES's will . Your evaluation is eagerly awaited, and where is that wine red Wes?
Tho; I fully expect you to declare ,when it's ready the Ms Wu with a Biltoft CC is the
creme de la creme for you. I am afraid the 18" bout would swamp someone of my size.
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I love my L4CES. Mine has the mahogany back and sides. Both versions are great IMO just very different sounding. We will be watching the FS section to see what you will be giving the boot.
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I think that if the L-4CES came about earlier in the timeline of jazz guitar history, it might be more popular today. As it is, only Joe Diorio used it as a main ax and so the L-5, Super 400 and ES-175 reign supreme.
That said, it is a " tweener" guitar. Sort of in between a 175 and an L-5 tonewise. I used to do jazz guitar duets with a couple of guys who owned L-4CES guitars ( I was mostly playing a 1977 ES-175 at the time). I did switch with both guys a few times. I like the 175 better. The 175 is more feedback resistant and is less delicate (two things of importance to a working jazz musician). But the L4-CES is sweet.
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Mine is an '88 ....
I've heard a rumor that the backs and sides were laminate ..
And that the top might even be a solid pressed top as opposed to carve ..
But I have no idea if those rumors are true
It does sound great, though
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I was having a hard time in my head to buy an L4CES when I could buy a full sized Golden Eagle for the same price. But I've moved on from them, and the L4CES being last on my Gibson ownership list, so it's now or never.
Clearly I'm anticipating it to have a deeper electric voice than the Sweet 16. IMO, their thin depths limit their voice range...but the '16's are so comfy and so much fun to play.
You guess it...it's an '02 model. I had the option of buying an '06 'hog back L4CES in Wine Red...and as much as I love the wine red/gold accents, I'm just a sucker for a sunburst. Both these guitars reportedly are from a large collection and reportedly "largely" unplayed. The price between the two was very minimal and I struggled several days about which to buy.
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Jabber,
I was unaware that a single pickup L4CES was made!
That was a very good acquisition , Steve Longobardi
will be intrigued by it I expect , he has been searching
for one, quite rare I would think?
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Being the hopeless addict I am I also encourage my fellow addicts to fall of the wagon and go for it. As we learned from Patrick one never knows how long we have here. Nothing's promised. "It's now or never"
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