Gibson ES-175 - Norlin vs Reissue

[electricfactory]

**UPDATE 7/21: Go to my last post in this thread!

Am also in the market for an ES 175, have my eye on three; a vintage original made in 1953, a vintage original from 1977 and a newer ES-175D VOS Reissue. Price points are within range of each other more or less with the 1977 being the least expensive @ $2350. Only the ( Norlin ?) 1977 is local to me. What do you guys think of the Norlin era ES-175's, any fans ?
I realize the neck profiles on all three will be different and the vintage 1953 has P90's which I like the idea of very much.
All related ES-175 insights and hands on experiences welcome.


1953


1977


2016 Reissue

[Tal_175]

I've never played a Norlin era 175, but from what I read and heard, I'm under the impression that not much was changed in the way ES 175's are made during this time unlike the solid bodies. Though I think the perception alone keeps the prices of guitars of this era lower and 50's ES 175's and new VOS's are highly prized. So it should be significantly cheaper than a new VOS or original 50's (like at least by 30%).
VOS's are based on 50's ES 175's. So both VOS and 53 should be more lightly build and resonant guitars than the 70's model. Amplified tones also should be slightly more acoustic and brighter. I have a modern one. I tried VOS's and original 50's models. I prefer the moderns but I would be totally happy with a 50's one too.
Have you tried them, or are you buying them from long distance sellers?

[Tal_175]

Also are the pickups in the 53 model original?

[rio]

Nothing wrong with Norlin Gibsons - therenare going to be great ones and poor ones. Jonathan Kreisberg plays a Norlin 175 and no one complains about that. My L5 is a Norlin, although granted it’s an early one at 1970, and it is the best L5 I’ve played. So it is just like choosing any other Gibson and making sure it’s a good one. With brands like Ibanez I can feel pretty safe ordering sight unseen if the guitar has been taken care of because their quality control is great. Not so much with Gibson so just make sure you know what you’re getting. Jack Zucker is selling an 80’s 175 at a good price and I’d feel safe with any guitar he sells based on buyer feedback here so that might be something you’d want to check out.


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[electricfactory]

Only the 1977 is local, although as you mentioned I too am trying to fight my unexplainable 'Norlin bias', although that might be putting it more strongly than I intend. And many here have Norlin era guitars and LOVE them so 'bias' probaly wan't a good choice.
The 50's guitar appears to be in very nice playing condition although I wonder how small/ skinny the frets might be. I'm sure it's the lightest in weight of the three.
That said the newly made Gibson VOS Reissues are by all accounts awesome performing instruments, though probably the heaviest of the three.

I've never played a Norlin era 175, but from what I read and heard, I'm under the impression that not much was changed in the way ES 175's are made during this time unlike the solid bodies. Though I think the perception alone keeps the prices of guitars of this era lower and 50's ES 175's and new VOS's are highly prized. So it should be significantly cheaper than a new VOS or original 50's (like at least by 30%).
VOS's are based on 50's ES 175's. So both VOS and 53 should be more lightly build and resonant guitars than the 70's model. Amplified tones also should be slightly more acoustic and brighter. I have a modern one. I tried VOS's and original 50's models. I prefer the moderns but I would be totally happy with a 50's one too.
Have you tried them, or are you buying them from long distance sellers?

[electricfactory]

Yes

Also are the pickups in the 53 model original?

[jzucker]

the norlin era 175s are great. In general, I love them. The maple neck 175s are about 1LB heavier than the mahogany neck ones and are brighter so keep that in mind.

I have an '88 with mahogany back/sides forsale that is a great instrument. It's listed on the forsale page.

Of the ones you are considering, I'd personally rate the ES-175D VOS Reissue as the least desirable.

[Tal_175]

That said the newly made Gibson VOS Reissues are by all accounts awesome performing instruments, though probably the heaviest of the three.

I would expect the 77 model be the heaviest one. VOS's are actually quite light if that's a factor for you.
If I was shopping for an ES 175 I'd be very tempted by the 80's mahogany model the forum member is selling and the original 50's model. Although the other two seem very good too.

[Stringswinger]

I own a 59 Reissue 175 (along with three other 175's) , I have owned a 1977 175 (that was my main player for about 5 years) and I have a bandmate who owns a 1953 (though his has only one PUP).

The 59 reissue is a great guitar and is about the same weight as my original 1963 175. I have heard that there are some quality control issues with these reissues, so look out for that. The neck is quite thick (a bit thicker than actual late 50's Gibsons that I have played) so bear that in mind. Against my 1963 175, the 59 reissue compares quite favorably.

The 53 will have a different sound thanks to the P-90's. It will be lightweight (about the same as the 59 reissue) and will feed back earlier than the 1977 (which is a much heavier build). The neck will be in between the 77 and the 59 reissue in girth. Being a lightly built instrument from the 50's, it may need some expensive maintenance, such as a neck reset. Look out for that.

The 77 is worth considering. It will have a maple neck and a volute (some are fine with these features, others, like myself are not). And the hardware will be chrome plated instead of nickel (some are fine with this feature, like myself and others are not). The neck will be a slim taper so it will be 60's thin in the lower position and medium at the neck join. The PUPS are T-Tops, which while brighter than the MHS/57Classics found in the 59 reissue will still be darker than the P-90's found in the 53. One very positive note regarding the 77 is that most have sunburst necks and sides like a more expensive L-5. It will also have a TOM bridge, but a wood saddle is an easy swap. And being from the Norlin era, quality control issue abound, some are great, others less so, just like the Gibsons of today (IMO, the pre 1975 Gibsons and the Gibsons made from 1982 -1999 are the most consistent quality wise).

All three choices may be the best, depending on what you like and the quality of the particular guitar. Good luck!

Here is a picture of the 4 175's that I currently own:

[omphalopsychos]

p90 on a hollowbody is one of the coolest sounds in jazz. I know many here prefer the PAF, but for me the choice would be obvious. The only drawback to the 53 is 60-cycle hum, but it is outweighed by the advantages this guitar carries along just about every other dimension.

[Cunamara]

Norlin era Gibsons get a bad rap but undeservedly so IMHO. Some of them sucked, some were fanstastic, most were OK- about the same as every other era of Gibson instruments. You have to assess each instrument on its own merits.

Jonathan Kreisberg plays a Norlin era ES-175 and he sounds fantastic. Joe Diorio played a Norlin era ES-175, he sounded great. Our own Jack Zucker has had several Norlin 80s ES-175s with mahogany necks and backs which he has said were great instruments; I quite like the sound of those myself.

Play the local one and see what you think. I would start there. If it doesn't make your heart go pitter-pat, then broaden your horizons.

[electricfactory]

The 1977

[electricfactory]

Thanks for the great reply Stringswinger, great info. Are you about the 1977 maple neck though ? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there were mahogany necks during that year too.
The volute dosen't bother me at all, neither the 60's slim taper although I have played some mighty skinny Gibson 70's necks among the 335 variant.
I've never had one vintage P90 equipped guitar and the '53 is certainly that.
Thanks again, some nice guitars you've got there!

I own a 59 Reissue 175 (along with three other 175's) , I have owned a 1977 175 (that was my main player for about 5 years) and I have a bandmate who owns a 1953 (though his has only one PUP).

The 59 reissue is a great guitar and is about the same weight as my original 1963 175. I have heard that there are some quality control issues with these reissues, so look out for that. The neck is quite thick (a bit thicker than actual late 50's Gibsons that I have played) so bear that in mind. Against my 1963 175, the 59 reissue compares quite favorably.

The 53 will have a different sound thanks to the P-90's. It will be lightweight (about the same as the 59 reissue) and will feed back earlier than the 1977 (which is a much heavier build). The neck will be in between the 77 and the 59 reissue in girth. Being a lightly built instrument from the 50's, it may need some expensive maintenance, such as a neck reset. Look out for that.

The 77 is worth considering. It will have a maple neck and a volute (some are fine with these features, others, like myself are not). And the hardware will be chrome plated instead of nickel (some are fine with this feature, like myself and others are not). The neck will be a slim taper so it will be 60's thin in the lower position and medium at the neck join. The PUPS are T-Tops, which while brighter than the MHS/57Classics found in the 59 reissue will still be darker than the P-90's found in the 53. One very positive note regarding the 77 is that most have sunburst necks and sides like a more expensive L-5. It will also have a TOM bridge, but a wood saddle is an easy swap. And being from the Norlin era, quality control issue abound, some are great, others less so, just like the Gibsons of today (IMO, the pre 1975 Gibsons and the Gibsons made from 1982 -1999 are the most consistent quality wise).

All three choices may be the best, depending on what you like and the quality of the particular guitar. Good luck!

Here is a picture of the 4 175's that I currently own:

[Stringswinger]

Thanks for the great reply Stringswinger, great info. Are you about the 1977 maple neck though ? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there were mahogany necks during that year too.
The volute dosen't bother me at all, neither the 60's slim taper although I have played some mighty skinny Gibson 70's necks among the 335 variant.
I've never had one vintage P90 equipped guitar and the '53 is certainly that.
Thanks again, some nice guitars you've got there!

My 77 had a maple neck and a fully sunburst sides and neck. I have seen some 77's with brown necks and sides so there were variations. Perhaps some had Hog necks. While I love a maple neck on a carved archtop with a spruce top, I like a Hog neck on a laminated maple topped archtop. My 77 with her maple neck and the T-tops was a bit brighter than other 175's I have owned and so away she went. I did not mind the small volute on my 1975 Les Paul Custom, but I thought the large volute on my 77 175 along with the super slim neck looked awful. Still, the 77 was a fine guitar and easy to play. Sometimes I regret letting her go, but it is not like I am short on 175's!

[jzucker]

maple neck. They didn't start making mahogany necks again on those until mid 1981

The 1977

[skiboyny]

I think very highly of the 59vos. I owned mostly carved archtop and haven't been compelled to own a laminate guitar in many years. The VOS changed that for me. It has the gibson 175 sound with a bit of air. We all hear things differently but for me this guitar does it right. You have to be sure to get one with a good neck. I hate to say it but there have been a fair amount of these turned out from Gibson with tail rise and many other neck issues fret work not the greatest either. The profiles vary greatly so that may be something to look out for. It's tough today cause you can't walk down the street a play a dozen of these. Mostly roll the dice. Try and cover yourself on neck issues and I think you would be happy with what ever you choose. Good luck!

[73Fender]

There is a long thread here about the 59 VOS reissues, some guys don't like the small frets. I love mine but would have preferred a more "robust sized" fret. Also the cases on some 59's have these "non clasp" latches that just push on with no pull down latch lever if that makes sense, not the tightest most secure closure. The newer "non 59 reissues" 175s with the metal bridge are also nice, but some had poorly cut nuts, I had to return mine to CME and wound up with the 59. I liked that firs 175 though other than the nut issue. Check out the for sale section here, seems like we have some good highly regarded sellers..wouldn't be surprised if you wound up with a pm or 3.

Good luck.

[vinlander]

For me a 175 shall have a mahogany neck and the presence of a volute is not desirable for many folks justified or not.
With that said some late Norlin era 175s like the '82 of our former fellow forumite Dutchbopper had mahogany neck and even back which for me is highly more desirable.
The 53 shown in the OP seems to have a non original TailPiece (like on the mid and later '50s 125) so it might be possible to negotiate on that.

[ThatRhythmMan]

For me a 175 shall have a mahogany neck and the presence of a volute is not desirable for many folks justified or not.
With that said some late Norlin era 175s like the '82 of our former fellow forumite Dutchbopper had mahogany neck and even back which for me is highly more desirable.
The 53 shown in the OP seems to have a non original TailPiece (like on the mid and later '50s 125) so it might be possible to negotiate on that.

The tailpiece on the ‘53 is definitely not original. An original would look like this.

[Uncle Vinnie]

I've played a 1950 ES-175 and a Norlin. The Norlin had a humbucker pick-up, which I consider to be less desirable than a P90.

The differences I noted were that the action on the 1950 was noticeably better than the Norlin, lower and easier to play, not saying that the Norlin was bad, it was great, but the 1950 was better.

The other difference was, when chording at the low end, the volute forced me to slightly change the position of my hand: The 1950 did not, especially when playing a Bb9 at the first fret.

I just recently played the 1950, it was part of an estate collection purchased by a friend of mine which also included a 1959 Les Paul burst, a 1952 Les Paul gold top, and a 1963 Firebird VII: All of these guitars were purchased by the owner new or a couple of years after and are in astonishing condition.

Here's the 1950, I played this guitar: It was an experience. He had a Gibson Custom Shop L5 that I played but this 175 played better IMO. Has a couple of slight dents in the back of the neck around the 5th fret, but other than that it's in astonishingly good condition, even the case too. I'd have bought it myself, but I've unfortunately found out that because of problems with my shoulder, I can't play an archtop. I recently purchased a beautiful Godin 5th Ave. Jazz, and it's sitting in the case because after about 20 minutes of playing, my right shoulder is killing me.

[electricfactory]

Great info Uncle Vinnie, particularly your insights about the volute. All things being equal I think I'd be happiest with a vintage P90 equipped 50's guitar for several reasons though tiny frets isn't one of them. The early 60's guitars with orig PAFS in them are stellar priced. My biggest challenge is finding an ES-175D in my budget, a player condition but all orig guitar $3-$4k.

I've played a 1950 ES-175 and a Norlin. The Norlin had a humbucker pick-up, which I consider to be less desirable than a P90.

The differences I noted were that the action on the 1950 was noticeably better than the Norlin, lower and easier to play, not saying that the Norlin was bad, it was great, but the 1950 was better.

The other difference was, when chording at the low end, the volute forced me to slightly change the position of my hand: The 1950 did not, especially when playing a Bb9 at the first fret.

I just recently played the 1950, it was part of an estate collection purchased by a friend of mine which also included a 1959 Les Paul burst, a 1952 Les Paul gold top, and a 1963 Firebird VII: All of these guitars were purchased by the owner new or a couple of years after and are in astonishing condition.

Here's the 1950, I played this guitar: It was an experience. He had a Gibson Custom Shop L5 that I played but this 175 played better IMO. Has a couple of slight dents in the back of the neck around the 5th fret, but other than that it's in astonishingly good condition, even the case too. I'd have bought it myself, but I've unfortunately found out that because of problems with my shoulder, I can't play an archtop. I recently purchased a beautiful Godin 5th Ave. Jazz, and it's sitting in the case because after about 20 minutes of playing, my right shoulder is killing me.

[plasticpigeon]

I would go with the 50s guitar and try and get a tailpiece that matches. I think the ones from the 50 were well made and sound wonderful. They are also quite light weight, and the necks are a good width of 1 11/16 (from the mid 60s they had a narrow nut of 1 9/16 ). I have a very early 70s L-5. No volute, nice sunburst and a 1 11/16" neck, but it is quite heavy. I think the early norlin guitars were pretty good. Later ones too probably, but the aesthetics suffered with volutes, funny sunbursts, large f holes etc. I recently bought a reissue 1954 175 made in 2015. It is a great guitar, and I think the shape, size, sound and playability are fantastic. It is an excellent design. However my reissue is quite a lot heavier than a real 50s guitar and is littered with small mistakes in manufacture which although they don't affect the sound or playability at all, make it less than perfect. All the 50s and early 60s ones I have seen have been really great.

[Uncle Vinnie]

Great info Uncle Vinnie, particularly your insights about the volute. All things being equal I think I'd be happiest with a vintage P90 equipped 50's guitar for several reasons though tiny frets isn't one of them. The early 60's guitars with orig PAFS in them are stellar priced. My biggest challenge is finding an ES-175D in my budget, a player condition but all orig guitar $3-$4k.

Reverb has several. Pick your flavor.

"gibson es-175d" Gear | Reverb

[electricfactory]

Well I pulled the trigger on a vintage 1953 Gibson ES-175D w/ P90 pickups in what appears to be excellent, all original condition ( I have my doubts about the buttons themselves but the tuners look right). Not the guitar I originally asked about pictured above. But a guitar I found at Chicago Music Exchange of all places.
I saw the guitar listed at Reverb.com, got into friendly exchange and subsequent phone chat with Dave A at CME. After a lengthy and thorough over-the-phone description and grilling ( I poured over pretty much every inch, Dave was patient and very accommodating) I was convinced this was THE guitar I was looking for. Especially for the price I pitched him.
Of course the acid test will be how does it plays/ sounds, it'll ship 2-Day air from Chicago on MON, by WEDS/ tHUR of next week I hope to post an ecstatic NGD ! By the way I was born in 1953, same as the guitar. Here are pics from the listing;

[rolijen]

Wow. That’s a looker! Report back when you have it in hand!