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I play a 22 watt solid state amp in a big band (an Award Session Bluesbaby 22, but you won’t find that in Sam Ash). It’s a loud amp for a solid state amp by the way - this one doesn’t suffer from the tube-watts-being-louder-than-solid-state-watts-syndrome ;-). And mine sports a 99dB efficiency Jensen Neo 12-100 speaker.
It works for rehearsals with the big band because I sit down next (close) to it and point it at my ears with (home-made) tilt back legs. Somehow the ceiling of our rehearsal room reflects the sound just right and the director has no problem hearing me. Of course when playing out it definitely needs to be mic-ed up (especially when playing outside, which is often the case).
We did a soul show where I had to stand up and initially placed the amp on the floor, tilted back and pointed at me, but the mere extra distance from the amp on the floor to my ears made it very hard to hear myself. When I raised the amp from the floor and put it closer to my ears on a flight case I could hear myself again. Here some footage of that show (you hear the miced guitar pretty well):
Theater 'T Web - We kunnen maar geen genoeg krijgen van de...
So a 15 watt Princeton or a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb might work or might not (although a Princeton seems very small...) , it depends on other factors that can be controlled or manipulated to your benefit to a certain degree.
The Bluesbaby 22 sounds great by the way, but is probably not readily available outside UK and Europa (but could perhaps be ordered). But they do make a 40 watts version now! It uses a Fender Blues Jr cabinet, by the way.
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07-02-2018 09:54 AM
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I've owned and performed with the Aviator head and the Aviator 8 -- both excellent amps, and plenty loud!
Originally Posted by Razorbackjazz
As much as I love the portability of these amps, I keep falling back to tubes!
That being said, any of the Quilters could work for your son.
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I’ve been struggling with this a bit. My JMUL (250 watts @ 2 ohms ~ 85 watts@ 8 ohms?) placed a little further back and angled up so that it’s pointed at my head seems to work. A single 12” speaker in a closed back cab seems a little more directional than say, an HRD. JMULs were discontinued a number of years ago and if I were to replace it, I’d have a look at the Quilters.
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You are getting a lot of varied advice; I'll just say I've been a guitarist for 45 years and today I only use Fender tube amps, have seven of them, including three Twin Reverbs... my usual preference.
Anyway, what I would suggest is probably the most important thing to do on your amp hunting trip is to see if you can borrow the particular jazz guitar from the school, so your son can hear how it sounds and feels through the various amps you find to evaluate... it is the best and only way to really know.
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As we are about ready to take the 3 hour drive to Sam Ash in Dallas today I thought I would take one more stab at this post. Over the last few days I’ve spent a lot of hours reading opinions and descriptions. My latest question concerns the Sweetwater Edition of the Princeton Reverb. Even though I understand these can be versatile amps I am mostly focused on the jazz application. From what I read the hemp cone speakers like the CRex are highly thought of. I called yesterday and they will sell one for $899. Today is going to exciting but I want to make a good decision. I would love to get some more advice from you all to mull over during the drive. Thank you all very much for your time.
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Mull over a Quilter instead. Originally Posted by Razorbackjazz
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Princeton Reverbs are great, but in a combo with a hard hitting drumner, he'll have a tough time staying clean.
Honestly, I can't imagine lugging around a tube amp as a college music student. Solid state all the way.
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I love Princeton Reverbs. I own one. It's my main amp when I play out. I don't recommend it for the application you're describing. PR's have enough clean "headroom" for small groups in small rooms, but not enough for a big band in a big loud room, or outdoors. PR's distorted sound is really great for blues or roots rock, but not for big band jazz. I think your son would be better off with something smaller/lighter and louder/cleaner. If you want something that approximates a tube sound, one of the modeling amps (e.g., the Fender Champion or Mustang series; Roland Cube or Boss Katana series) at 40 or more watts. One of the amps marketed as jazz amps (e.g., Henriksen, AER, or DV) would also be good.
If it has to be a Fender tube amp, and your kid is willing to schlep it, I'd recommend a HR Deluxe over a Deluxe Reverb or a PR for this application because it has more clean headroom. The tone is more similar to a tweed style Fender (as opposed to blackface or silverface), though. If you want something in the BF/SF tone family, but louder/cleaner than a PR or DR, then you have to start looking at the 6L6 based amps (Vibrolux Reverb, Super Reverb, Pro Reverb, Twin Reverb). These are significantly bigger, heavier, and more expensive, and no fun to schlep around, though. Also, if the amp is going to get slammed around in car trunks and practice rooms by HS kids, I'm really not sure tubes are the way to go, especially given how good today's SS and modeling amps are.
John
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I'm also an upright bassist and guitarist. Honestly, and Orange Keyboard/Bass amp and a Sansamp pedal is a great, inexpensive combination. The bonus is that an upright will also sound great through the orange. I've used this setup playing both guitar and bass in a large jazz big band and it does fine. Originally Posted by Razorbackjazz
Being completely honest, I've never understood the need for a 2x12 amp or larger. All the situations I've played in 20+ years of doing all kinds of gigs, either a 8" or 10" amp has been plenty loud, or the venue has a sound system and mic'ing said "8 or "10 amp has been fine. I can't recall even once cranking my amp past 75%, and I've used an "8 or "10 single speaker cabinet my entire playing career.
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I love a Fender tube amp myself, but ...
I'm leaning towards the Katana ..... or maybe a Fender Mustang (GT or III)
Would also be a great amp if he wants to branch off into other guitar related music .. rock, fusion, country, etc.
I've got some expensive and not so expensive tube amps, but for noodling at home I've been playing my Fender Mustang III lately. Lots of decent built in effects and amp modeling. It did a good job playing at church, but I haven't had it out for any jazz gigs. My gigs have all been bass gigs for the last few years.
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This amp is strictly jazz. I have others for Rock type applications. Having said that I know many will suggest other options besides Fender. Since we are stubborn it’s going to be a tube amp. The trip to Sam Ash today accomplished very little. They didn’t have a 65 Princeton Reissue like they claimed so we played the Deluxe and a 68 Princeton. We both liked the Deluxe so now we’re trying to decide between it and the Sweetwater 12” Cannabis Rex Princeton. We have until tomorrow to decide in order to get the $100-$150 off for the July 4 Special. I’m still leaning Princeton because he’ll be toting this thing around quite a bit. Any thoughts?
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Deluxe and casters?
The Princeton on WILL NOT CUT IT IN A BIG ENSEMBLE.
Seriously, it's college. You can get a 20 pound solid state amp that will get the job done. ZT lunchbox and a tech 21 blonde preamp pedal. Less than $400 total.
If somebody somewhere told you that you need a tube amp, they're an idiot.
Lugging a 40 pound tube amp around campus is ludicrous.
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The Sweetwater Princeton with the CR 12 is pretty interesting. It might be ok for all but the loudest situations. I played in a big band in which the guitarist went through a blackface Princeton and he sounded fine. Most of the time.
But from a practical point of view, buy a SS amp off Craigslist.Last edited by Bach5G; 07-03-2018 at 10:36 PM.
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It's college, man. Horn section full of 'Lil Maynards.
100 watts solid state bare minimum.
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Being an old guy who owns a ZT Lunchbox, Quilter 200 Micropro, and a Fishman Artist Loudbox, I still gig with a Deluxe because my tone is worth it
I also have a collapsing hand truck I use to haul it any distance and I've replaced the speaker with a much, much lighter c12q for weight reduction and brighter tone.
I'm also a big fan of the Princeton, but it really won't cut it in louder situations, including outdoor gigs with no PA, or with heavy handed drummers. Or with a Big Band.
OTOH, I have played jam sessions with a drummer, piano, bass, 3 or 4 horns, etc, everyone going through the PA except me, and with a 15watt Pro Jr and could be heard just fine In those sort of situations, it's all about the midrange. Similarly, I've used a ZT Lunchbox and while it's not the most toneful of beasts, it sure punches through!
I advocate more than one guitar, and more than one amp for the working pro/semi-pro, so that you have the right tools for the job at hand. For the student, a jack-of-all trades guitar like an ES 335 type and a loud, cheapish amp like a HRD.
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I love and own a 65 BF Fender Deluxe Reverb
And a 68 Fender Deluxe Reverb
Love the sounds of these amps.
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I'm normally a tube guy, but in this situation, I'd say solid-state is the better choice. You're going to want clean headroom (ain't getting that with a Princeton), and a DRRI won't deliver tones so much better than modern SS amps that cost a few hundred less.
I don't know SS amps so well as to give specific recommendations, but in his shoes I'd go with a good SS, following some of the suggestions here.
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If you decide to go tube, the 65 deluxe reverb you are thinking about is an excellent choice. As great as they are for portability, solid state amps are still not the real thing, and if serious about studying guitar, study with the real thing.
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I have no definite opinions in this, except Princeton class sounds like a bit too weak in this environment.
But one thing I don't get: (almost) everybody here starts new SS-amp threads (almost) daily by saying that "when I was young I carried the tube amps all over the world, now I am old and my back etc". And now when we are asked opinions of a powerful jazz amp for a young guy (almost) everybody is recommending a SS-amp, "because he is young".
From the 1940's til today the young people have been playing tube amps , carrying and slamming them in to the car trunks.
No way! Youth needs tubes! Silverface Vibrolux Reverb it must be!
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I have been reading all morning about SS amps. While I don’t want to part with $1500+ for an Evans which seem to be outstanding, $1000 for a Quilter is possibility. I’ve been planning on spending that amount for the Fender anyway. The Aviator Gold HD combo w/12 inch Celestion at 29 pounds seems about perfect. This appears to be an amp that would be dependable and serve him well all the way through college. Even though he desperately wants a Fender Tube amp I really have to defer to musicians who have the experience. Is that amp a good choice?
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I'm sure that Special edition Princeton is a great sounding amp, as are all Princetons! My current personal favorite Fender amp is the Pro Junior, but it seems that is a bit too small for your application.
The basic trade off you are facing is going to be size and weight vs power and volume. That's why so many recommendations for solid state amps came up on this thread. Lugging around a big amp sucks, but they sure can sound great. I'm 53 so for me the smaller the better, but plenty of young dudes think only a Marshall stack will do.
It will be fun to hear about what you choose
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Will he be carrying it back and forth regularly? Any stairs? If so, yes. Sub a good neo speaker even better. Originally Posted by Razorbackjazz
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OK, so I thought I was too late to the party and the buy was a done deal but it sounds like it isn't.
Mr. Beaumont's advice is spot on and he is repeating it for a reason. We've been down this discussion with other dads buying equipment for their sons and looking at cool/competitive/hip rather than practical. RBJ, "stubborn" isn't going to get you and your son the most usable amp for a college jazz band situation. It's a second instrument and going forward he'll get way more gigs as a bassist that he will as a guitarist. Bassists are valuable; guitarists are a dime a dozen.
Many college jazz bands have an amp already for the guitarist (mine did)- and they have a guitar, too? Check if they have an amp and if so, maybe don't buy anything except maybe a practive guitar.
I've had a Fender Pro Reverb for 35 years. Great amp... never use it. Too big, too heavy, not quite clean enough when loud (a problem you will run into with most Fender amps smaller than a Twin), too loud for use at home. And it's really not voiced for jazz IMHO. I have an AI Clarus 2r with a Raezor's Edge 12" cab- great jazz amp, played many gigs with it. Loud and clean. I have a clone of a tweed Deluxe 5E3 which has the excellent Cannabis Rex 12" speaker, sounds great, have used it for a lot of gigs with my Tele but doesn't get along so well with my archtop at gig volumes (Fender amps tend to have a lot of bass which leads to feedback with archtop guitars- you have to learn the trick to compensate for Fender's aggressive mid-cut in the tone stack, which is to basically turn the bass and treble knobs to just about 0).
The amp I have gigged the most with? A Roland Cube 60. Light, loud, reliable, great range of tones available between the standard channel and the amp simulation channel. They go for about $200 used. Perfect for the hard life of a college student musician and not too tragic a loss if some idiot spills a beer into it or it gets stolen. I cannot adequately express how much I think this would be the perfect amp.
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YES! [and so is the Aviator 8, which is even lighter!] Originally Posted by Razorbackjazz
Seriously, if he needs more sound for a performance or something, buy an extension cab; other guys know the physics of it, but the combo plus an extension can create a wall of sound! VBoutique in California makes the Quilter cabs (and they make for other big bucks companies, too, who then charge an arm and a leg for the same cab!), and JDesign also does great work.
Not to throw in another monkey wrench ... but since there's been a lot of recent enjoyment of the Henriksen Blu, I'm surprised it's not been mentioned here (or I missed it if someone did). Again, with an extension, this can be very loud!
Let us know!
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He’s in our studio working on High School All Region Music on his Upright at the present. I’m sure he’ll be working on jazz stuff for his Friday lesson afterwards on his Telecaster. Most likely he’ll be beating around on the drums later or covering a Ghost song on one of my Charvels. He’s even starting to sound pretty good on keyboards. I prioritize as follows 1)Upright Bass in Orchestra and upright and bass guitar in Jazz, Jazz Guitar, everything else. He’s a kid having fun. I created it and now feel the need to feed it. The fact that he’s 15 with 6 solid years of being pushed quite hard, I feel he will never be limited to just one instrument. I’m not really concerned about how many more gigs he may get with one instrument or another. I’d rather see him write and record and play every instrument. As far as the amp it really does need to be lighter weight than a Fender. I have him read every comment on this post and he has come around to the idea that a SS Amp is the way to go. Luckily the choices are a little more clear cut. I have time to make a good decision. We have plenty of amps for him to play now. He doesn’t need the new one until mid August. I took special note of the comment about possible issues with Archtops and Fender tube amps. I would love for this amp to work equally well with the school’s Eastman Archtop and his 52 Hot Rod Tele. I’m guessing that may be another advantage of going SS.
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