-
350s and 175s seemed to be popular with the '50s generation of jazz guitarists, no doubt because of their lower prices and maple tops. I've seen many pics of both models with different pickups (adding humbuckers to one originally equipped with single-coils, bar pickups in place of single-coils or humbuckers). Certainly the sheer size and weight of the bar pickup (AKA Charlie Christian) would deter players from installing one on a real carved spruce top.
L5s and Super 400s there were, but for a lot of jazzers they didn't seem to have that much appeal. There appear to be a lot more Super 400s among the country music set than anywhere else. Was Wes Montgomery's single-pickup L5 ever an endorsement deal? I don't think it was, more like a one-off custom.
It is a curious thing that the few guitarists who had endorsement deals with Gibson had their names on guitars quite different from what they ordinarily played. I tend to believe that they went for "bling" in the expectation that, the fancier Gibson made them, the more they would sell, and the bigger the royalty checks.
The Barney Kessel is, to my eye, downright ugly -- gaudy cherry sunburst, tacky gold hardware, poufty inlay on the fingerboard and head -- and I don't know that it offered any functionally variant features compared to the standard jazz boxes of the day. The Tal Farlow was a handsome beast, but, again, the difference was in the trim rather than the electronics or other specs.
-
10-20-2009 12:37 PM
-
Talbot Farlow was THE MAN. That's the man about whom George Benson publicly said, "NOBODY cuts Tal Farlow, nobody !". (That DVD, btw, is probably at your local library, mine has it - my wife checks it out for me every couple of months. But I digress ...)
Farlow has said on several public occasions that he had genuine input into the design of his Gibson. But - other than the weird scroll - what is different about his model and the normal ES-350, anybody know ?
-
I like the scroll. At least, it makes the TF guitar easy to identify!
-
while we're talking good names, isn't it talmadge, not talbot?
Originally Posted by randyc
as for differences, just the scroll and the pickups, right?
-
Wes Montgomery's L-5 was a standard, ordered with just the bridge pickup, a fairly common option of the day. There is some talk about the "heart" being added at the factory - I don't know about that. The current Wes was introduced quite a while after he died, IIRC. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
There has long been a rumor - unconfirmed so far as I can tell - that he also ordered a single-pickup L-4CES very late in his short life. I can't find the source of that rumor and the Gibson shipping log URL seems to have disappeared from the internet. Too bad, that was an interesting site.
The difference in his "sound", however is distinctively changed after obtaining the L-5. Anyone - not just a guitarist - can note the altered sound between the two periods of time (175 vs L-5). Not that the earlier stuff is BAD, but the ES-175 sounds thin compared to his later work.
-
Of course, I make that mistake all the time ... ("Talbot" is a very common name where Tal was raised and my own family, who lives in the same area, has ties to the Talbots.) No disrespect meant to a most revered musician. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
According to archtop.com, the Tal Farlow is a 350 with figured woods and additional trim (notably the scroll, "upside down" fretboard inlays, and the curiously shaped pickguard). It retains the nickel hardware, which is a plus as far as I'm concerned. I've seen one in natural, which is my favorite.
Now, if they'd make it a little thinner, with a 24.75" scale...
...then it'd be the lpdeluxe model, I guess.
-
I believe it was a neck-pickup-only variation. I read somewhere that the heart was used to cover some hole difficult to avoid drilling with the existing tooling -- maybe used for a bracket or standoff during the finishing process. Originally Posted by randyc
And Tal was short for Talmadge. I think I would shorten it, too, if it were mine.
Edit: here's a link to the Wikipedia entry. Note that the copy says he is pictured on the right with a Tal Farlow Gibson, but it's obviously a standard ES-350.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_FarlowLast edited by lpdeluxe; 10-20-2009 at 01:37 PM. Reason: to add nitpicky detail beyond all necessity
-
One of the things I learned in that Wikipedia article is that Tal went from picking up the guitar at 21 to playing professionally in a year! :blinks: That's amazing.
-
LOL, I'd better not do any driving today, I'm obviously having senior moments. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Well, the heart could have covered the pickup selector switch in the two p/u version of the L-5CES ? If so, it might be that the tops were pre-drilled with that 3/8 hole BEFORE pickup holes were routed. Seems sort of unlikely but then what do I know about their process flow during manufacturing !!
I suppose that if Wes was in a hurry and there were no blank tops being carved at the time, the option of covering the hole might be a good compromise. I doubt not that Gibson would have made every reasonable effort to satisfy the most widely recognized user of their most expensive instrument. (Younger fans may not know that Wes Montgomery was a POP star, not just a jazz musician .. he had many AM hits and his name was known by most average teenagers.)
I've also heard an explanation that suggests that the heart covered finish wear from Wes' flying fingers but the location of the heart is wrong for that explanation and I didn't give that theory much credence.
One thing that slightly conflicts with the whole single neck pickup thing is the statement that I've read that Wes supposedly made, paraphrasing, "I play a standard box - don't want to have no trouble replacing it if it breaks". Something like that, anyway.
I suppose that he could have made that statement but at a different time, e.g. when he was still playing the 175.
I love this trivia stuff !
-
Aha. The "pickup selector switch cover" story rings a bell. Good going, Randy, you were behind on points but your brain delivered in the clutch.
BDLH, that's the scariest part of the whole story. Let's see, I picked up guitar in 1970, and before long, I was playing professionally...of course, in this case "before long" is a flexible term. Sort of like "overnight sensation" (I definitely wasn't one of those -- in fact, I'm still waiting my status as "sensation" to start). But on the other hand, I have played more instruments professionally (NOT using that as a synonym for "as well as"): guitar, bass and harmonica. In fact, I'll repeat my boast that I'm the only person I've ever heard of who has played harmonica in an orchestra pit. Top that, Tal!
-
Brain is barely functional these days, anti-seizure meds ("Kepra") were prescribed and I've been taking them for a few days. Not good stuff at all, feels a lot like being back in chemo-therapy !
Can't top the harmonica story but I've brought along my share of oddball instruments to gigs, dulcimer (very proficient), fiddle (barely proficient), sitar (barely able to hold it upright) ..
I'm still real interested in that Wes/L-4 rumor. It has the ring of plausibility if not of strict truth, here's why:
Wes played the 175 for years and it was probably about that particular model that he made the above statement about the "standard box". When he switched over to the L-5, he probably had exactly the same reaction that I did, which is: this thing sounds GOOD but I can play the 175 (or L-4 in my case) a little bit more comfortably. Wes wasn't a big guy, probably 5' 9" or so ... unlike Tal - a big guy with MONSTER-size hands.
Perhaps, once he found that Gibson would/could accomodate his desires, why not go back to a 175-size/scale guitar but with a carved spruce top and a single p/u ?
Does that make sense or am I still over-medicated ? That story, in one or two sentences, is still pervasive on the internet ...Last edited by randyc; 10-20-2009 at 02:46 PM. Reason: add ref to Tal
-
it makes sense to me.
I'm 6'4" or so, and an L5 feels big to me!
-
Please humor me, then, by adding to my L-5 data base. With your fingers extended as far as is comfortable on your left hand, kindly measure the distance between the tip of your little finger and the tip of your thumb. Post the information here or PM me. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thank you
-
9.5 inches. I'll share that measurement, but no others, without being bought a drink first.
an L5 (or other of the like) feels big around body wise to me, not in the left hand--i'm used to 25.5 inch scale guitars...
-
Comparing a picture of the Wes Montgomery-with-heart to the current L5, it appears that the heart is an inch or two below the position of the pickup switch on the two pickup version. I can't imagine his fingers flying to that location: he anchored his right hand fingers to facilitate the thumb technique.
I believe the mystery remains. The current reissue lacks the heart (no, not "a" heart; "the" heart).
An internet piece on Wes' guitars states flatly that he played an ES-175 until 1963, when he began to play the L-5 "almost exclusively." It is a bit skimpy, and I don't know any reason to give it particular weight. In any case, that "almost" is a red flag to the researcher, perhaps hiding a qualification such as "except when he played a Telecaster or a Gretsch Duo Jet." It does note, however, that Montgomery considered guitars as no more than tools. One thing that puzzles me is that he apparently went happily from a short scale to the longer scale instrument. To this day (and I'm much older than Wes was, at his death) I don't tolerate anything but 24.75" scales very well. Perhaps further proof, if any is needed, that I'm not quite at his level.
Yet.
-
Based on an unscientific survey that I took a couple of years ago on another forum, "B" is squarely in happy L-5CES player territory.
I asked for owners/former owners of L-5 guitars who could give an honest opinion about how well they THOUGHT they played their L-5 compared to other instruments. Not how well they actually played or how well their playing was regarded by others.
My object was to determine "product satisfaction" without using those possibly pejorative words. If people "thought" that they played the L-5 better than other guitars, then clearly they were satisfied with the experience. Anyway, here are some "statistics", for what they're worth:
The average L-5 player stated that they played that instrument better than other guitars and as to the degree of "better" they stated that, on a scale of 0 to 10, 0 meaning that the L-5 was no better or worse than other guitars, they rated the experience as 8.2 (the mean)
The average L-5 player who is clearly experiencing satisfaction playing his instrument is 6' 2" tall and has a thumb to little finger span of 9.1 inches.
Many of those surveyed made the same complaint as you about the size of the body BUT their ratings of the experience belied those complaints - clearly they felt that they played their guitars WAY better than their other guitars DESPITE the large body.
The reason that I took the survey was to do my nerdy engineer thing of trying to find out if I could be truly happy with an L-5 before spending the $$$. Why did I worry about it ? Because I'm a half-foot shorter than all of these people with a thumb-little finger span a full inch shorter.
But did I pay attention to the results of my own survey and stay contented with my L-4CES ?
Nope. I LOVE my L-5CES !!!
-
That's my point vis-a-vis the persistent L-4 rumor. Maybe he wasn't quite happy with the L-5 scale length .. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
-
Hmmm... I'm at work and can't find a ruler. I'm a slap-happy 6'2" L-5 player. I wonder how tall Freddie Green was?
-
well, i've been playing my 24.75 inch scale godin a lot lately, but I picked up my tele last night and felt no issues...either I'm just very used to that instrument or the difference in feel of scale length thing is over-stressed...
i do wonder if someone used to 24.75 would have more issues going up than me, who was used to 25.5, going down?
-
I'm afraid that the mystery DOES remain. Because of that rather awkward, esthetically unpleasing location, I'd propose that the factory did NOT install it. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Besides, as you point out, the Wes models never did have a heart, which also suggests that the original didn't leave the factory with one.
My earliest supposition, as mentioned on this very forum a while back, was that Wes put the thing there as a symbol of the American Heart Society. That assumes, of course, that he knew about his heart problem, which is fairly arguable.
Too bad his son didn't write a book. On the other hand, if his son is anything like my own, he had little interest in Dad's livelihood.
-
BDLH: If you don't mind, would you make that measurement, at your convenience, and get it to me. Also, on the scale of 0 to 10, how well do you think you play your L-5 versus other guitars. NOT how well you actually play it or what others think and NOT what you'd rather be playing
I'd just like to add to the data base, I don't even know why, information for the sake of information, seemingly.
Thanks
-
I'll post that tonight. Anyone else?
-
Thanks. Sure, anyone that wants to give me the information above, their height and so forth, I'll add to the data base. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Be careful about us liberals, though - first we'll make you register your firearms and next your L-5's
-
Woops! Posting in wrong forum.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale