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I saw a very nice 1958 ES-225 TD, blond, two P90s today at a local guitar shop. I would actually trade one of my guitars for it, it was that good. But no way would I pay what they were asking ($5500!) for it.
I went to the Vintage Gibson guitars blogspot site:
Vintage Gibson Guitars: Gibson Es-225
This is the pricing set forth at that site:
Vintage guitar price value :
1955 - 1959 > $1600 to $2300 ( es-225 t natural)
1955 - 1959 > $1500 to $2100 ( sunburst )
1956 - 1959 > $2100 to $2800 (es-225td natural )
1956 - 1959 > $1800 to $2300 ( sunburst )
Notice that the asking price of the store is nearly DOUBLE what it is appraised here. That is a huge difference! Is this website way off base, because it seems that it is otherwise accurate elsewhere??
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10-01-2009 04:48 PM
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I see a sunburst one here
1956 Gibson ES-225T - More Music - , Very Good Condition
for $1995
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I find small shops all over the map with prices on uncommon guitars, but more often too high than too low.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Write your offer on a business card and give it to them. When no one bites on their outrageous price, they may call you.
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Blonde - nice guitar ! I've frequently thought that those estimates were on the low side but then here in California, things tend to be costlier than in other areas.
Still, $5500 is a LOT of money !!! My blonde L-4CES was significantly less expensive than that. At $5500, you should be entering L-5CES territory: http://www.archtop.com/ac_70L5CES.html
But if it's your heart's desire, I hope that you find a way ...Last edited by randyc; 10-01-2009 at 05:20 PM.
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Thanks all, for the feedback, appreciated. I'm not going to bid for it, but I will see if I can trade one of my guitars for it. No way is it worth $5500 (the ES-225TD, that is). My guitar should be appraised for more than that, BTW.
These days, we can all find a ton of info on the internet, and vendors and sellers should be aware of it, for sure. How hard is it to google,
?
I'm thinking (1) they don't get many jazz boxes at their store; (2) they are, nonetheless, aware that Gibson charges a pretty penny for their stuff new (i.e., is overcharged); so (3) they can over charge for the older stuff. I guess that's how that works.
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It could be on consignment and the owner is asking for a high price ...
Originally Posted by NSJ
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Well, here's the research, then, about this guitar: it goes for about $2000 - $3200 (as shown by actual vendors attempting to sell it): the high end of this price is reserved for the blonde, 2 pickup model, and the low end is the single pickup, burst model.
Most of the people who have played it have absolutely loved it, but it has not "collected" well.
I went back to the store today, and they're confident in sticking to their $5500 price tag, saying, "you can't believe what you read on the internet; we'll have no problems trying to sell it for that price". They made a big deal out of (1) it being blonde; (2) it having 2 pickups: (3) only a few hundred of the blond guitars were made; (3) it was in fairly pristine condition.
Wow. "No problems trying to sell it for that price". Good luck to them, I guess No way I would value it for that price, and no way actual vendors trying to sell the exact same guitar on the 'net.
Me? I'm gonna try to trade my early 50s P90 ES-175 for a new Sadowsky Semi Hollow.
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Thanks. I once had a Thinline Eagle that I really liked a lot. I'm not really in the market of buying a new guitar right now, just maybe trying to trade my ES-175 for something that may have a little more sustain. Originally Posted by ingeneri
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Wow, there are so many strange aspects to this story ... But I confess, my curiosity is focused on your own attitude more than the seller's - please don't be offended. Originally Posted by NSJ
Why would you want to trade away one of the world's most seminal and desirable jazz guitars for an ... um, expediency?
Sic transit gloria mundae ?
Your ES-175 guitar will be illustrated, described in detail, written about in jazz guitar histories as long as the music has a following and treasured by owners of instruments made in the "golden age". Divesting it because you want "a little more sustain" ... makes me almost speechless.
Can you post a photograph of your instrument ?
Thank you,
randyc
PS: Sadowski prob worth about $3k resale now (MMV), and may not even keep up with inflation ... name may be forgotten in a few years. No disrespect intended but there are/have been lots of custom luthiers - Gibson, well we all know about resale value, right ?Last edited by randyc; 10-03-2009 at 03:14 AM. Reason: edited to change "the instrument" to "your instrument" added PS
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I've got an ES-225 that I plan to sell on eBay (coincidentally, I'd like to get into a Sadowsky Semi-Hollow too!).
But my 225 is just a well-played plain-jane single-pickup sunburst model. No way it will sell for more than 1900. I'm guessing 1300 to 1800 or so.
So $5500 seems fairly outrageous to me--even for a pristine, blonde, dual P-90 model!
But you never know. A well-to-do collector could be looking for just that model, I suppose.
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The Sadowsky archtops are not custom instruments - they are (imo world class) production instruments. Roger's operation has been established for 30 years and he has quite a client list ... Originally Posted by randyc
Sadowsky Guitars | Featured Artists
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Bill, I don't get your point unless you are saying that this is another Gibson Corporation, in the early years of inception ... if that's your point, it may well be a good one. But if not ... Originally Posted by Bill C
Quite clearly he will probably not be around for another 30 years so where's the continuity ? How could I get "my" instrument repaired in the future after he's gone ? What if I want to sell it 10 years downstream and he is no longer the favored/popular maker ?
What if the newer processes and not-so-well-aged materials show a latent defect in the design/workmanship five or ten years from now, who will reimburse me for the $5000 I spent when the company no longer exists ?
There are so many guitar makers now that I can't keep track of them, not even the local builders. You know what the SBA (Small Business Administration, here in the U.S.) says about start-ups, right ? Ninety percent failure rate. I couldn't possibly spend the kind of $$$ that these guys want for a product that may not stand the test of time.
There are lots of arguments that favor individual manufacturers and it WOULD be nice to have a custom instrument. But there are even more arguments against making an investment that probably will not hold it's value, history being any indicator.
NO CRITICISM IMPLIED of the Sadowsky products, I have no experience with them except here on the internet. I haven't any reason to think that they are better or worse than other "production" instruments.
Conservatism regarding expenses steers me away from products that I don't know anything about. And endorsements NEVER impress me, they are a built-in conflict of interest, IMO.
Thanks for "listening", stepping off soapbox now ...
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... the points I was trying to make were ...
- Roger's operation is different from a one man custom builder setup. With the archtops, you choose from a small range of off-the-shelf models.
- the brand has a serious reputation
Having played some excellent Sadowsky guitars and some excellent old Gibsons I can understand where NSJ is coming from - get the guitar that works for you
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Bill, thanks for expanding your original thoughts. I understand your viewpoint now but I'm still "conflicted" about someone giving up a piece of history for "a little more sustain". I'll probably never understand that.
It reminds me <slightly> of a friend who - a half century ago - wanted to trade HIS 175 (also early fifties) for my silly old '61, near-worthless, Les Paul. I refused to trade and NOT because I didn't want his guitar ...
It would have ruined our friendship after enough time went by for him to start resenting ME for the trade rather than his own impulsive decision. One of the few times in my young life that I exhibited both wisdom and resistance to temptation.
I have a terrible affliction - I collect things, not just guitars, either. It's incurable, and beware, also contagious ! I asked for a photo of the ES-175 that NSJ wants to divest for potentially selfish reasons ... I may want it myself, if he is really that tired of it
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Randy, Originally Posted by randyc
Bill, thanks for expanding your original thoughts. I understand your viewpoint now but I'm still "conflicted" about someone giving up a piece of history for "a little more sustain". I'll probably never understand that.
It reminds me <slightly> of a friend who - a half century ago - wanted to trade HIS 175 (also early fifties) for my silly old '61, near-worthless, Les Paul. I refused to trade and NOT because I didn't want his guitar ...
It would have ruined our friendship after enough time went by for him to start resenting ME for the trade rather than his own impulsive decision. One of the few times in my young life that I exhibited both wisdom and resistance to temptation.
I have a terrible affliction - I collect things, not just guitars, either. It's incurable, and beware, also contagious ! I asked for a photo of the ES-175 that NSJ wants to divest for potentially selfish reasons ... I may want it myself, if he is really that tired of it
Just for clarification, to explain myself:
1. I've gotten rid of most of my guitars the small #s I've kept, I love, including the ES-175, which shows a lot of playing history behind it--some dings, it's a player's guitar, great sound, still solid, over all. Not top of the line in terms of *collectibility* (it's actually been refretted/played a ton, finish starting to rub off on the back of the neck, even), but whatever.
2. I actually prefer two other guitars I have in the pecking order, a Sadowsky Jim Hall and a mid 70s Gibson Howard Roberts. The Sadowsky Jim Hall is an absolutely incredible guitar, let me tell you--even Jim Hall would agree, even if he has kept his old 175 (actually, that was Howard Roberts' old 175, which he traded to Jim sometime in the 50s) and the D'aqusto. I prefer playing the Hall to the 175.
3. I'll be happy to keep the 175, but if I can find a Sadowsky Semi Hollow, I'd seriously have to think about a trade (can't afford to buy any more instruments--well, actually I can charge it, but that would not be good, right now). Actually, the one guitar I really regret selling is a mid 90s Heritage Prosect Std, which was based on Gibson's ES-336. Man, that was a very nice guitar in terms of tone and sustain, cheap, too.
Also, to report back, that $5500 guitar is now gone--someone actually/apparently paid that much for it--had to be a *collector*, who else would overpay like that???? Unreal.
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Hi NSJ,
I didn't think of this yesterday but their reaction to your web research was so arrogant (?) that they must already have spoken to the buyer. Too bad, from your description it would have been one great acquisition. But NOT for $5,500, or even $2,000 LESS than that, not to me anyway.
One of my favorites is my blonde L-4CES and it was less than half that price, like new ! And my L-5CES was literally only $150 more than that. I don't get it, I love to collect things but not stupid-expensive things ...
Anyway, I'll bet a photo of your ES-175 (a guitar the likes of which most of us will never get to see) would interest a lot of people. One of my favorite books, "Classic Guitars of the 1950s" has some beautiful photos of early fifties 175's and it is arguably one of the most influential instruments ever designed .... for jazz anyway.
Thanks for the additional information,
Randy
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I've posted a jpeg of my ES-175, it's an ok looking guitar, pretty standard issue for the time (single pickup, P90). It has 12s, roundwound. I've stopped with the flats--I don't mind the fret noise, I want the dynamic response and sustain, even if it is too bright for some.
Like I said, it's been a workhorse, still in tact after decades of large scale use (only in the last few by me)
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It's a BEAUTY !!! Love the single p/u versions and I'm convinced that they sound better, too.
Thank you,
randyc
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