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Hi Ozoro - yes, I was deliberately letting a bit of water pass under the bridge really.
Originally Posted by 0zoro
Sound development - in terms of effects capability (further expanded now I've updated to firmware 2.50) - great, and no question for me that the sound quality, ease of switching and everything beats what I could do with my pedalboard. So all the stuff with amp and cab sims, IRs etc. aside, the unit works for me just as a pedal board replacement. Line 6 have recently brought out an HX FX effects only unit (you may have seen), with the same effects, but I do prefer the better switching facilities, nice screen and editing, and built in expression pedal on the Helix LT, so no regrets there - for me worth the extra, regardless.
Regarding the Alto - it does make a huge difference when using the models, so yes, the amp does colour things considerably. To be truthful, oh dear - I have still yet to try the Alto at gig volume, or indeed, at a gig (I chickened out!) so a bit of a question mark still hangs over it there. I am waiting for a band I'm in to re-start rehearsals, which will happen at the beginning of March, and until then, I won't be sure. I can definitely get nice things with the Alto at bedroom practice volume anyhow, so am still optimistic I can make it work. Just in the end did not want to take the risk of going straight in with it at a gig when I didn't have to...
IR's do seem to make a very considerable difference to tone - to the extent I would say that the cab and speaker (plus mic), as encoded in the IR, appears to be at least 50% of what makes an amp/speaker sound the way it does. Certainly a big deal it seems to me - that said, there's so many available to try, that it's easy to get overwhelmed.
Apologies I don't have anything more exciting or conclusive to tell you though - I guess I have bought into something which is more of a long-term journey.
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02-10-2018 12:34 PM
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Yes indeed, I too believe that this is a long journey you have embarked upon. I have had a POD HD for about 3 or 4 years and I am still finding things out about it that I didn´t know. Just the other day I went into a section that I have completely ignored and found some interesting stuff. Still I wanted to touch base with you on your progress. The short of it is that I am still intreged with what I have heard about the machine itself, but as I am not in the market for a new amp set up I am perturbed about what results I would get if I got the Helix. I have not had the opprotunity of hearing one yet so .......... I live off impressions from others for the moment.
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I was too negative about the Marco Fanton patches I bought - it turns out that the Litiga one has worked out pretty well for my go-to smooth lead tones, it's really very nice indeed - I guess a bit of tweaking needed to get things exactly to taste, but it is a very good starting point for me, and I'm glad I spent the seven odd quid on that one. Very possibly I'll find good things in the Cartographer one as well, with a bit of experiment.
Still liking the unit very much anyhow - the recent 2.50 firmware update introduced a lot of very good stuff, including a whole load of "legacy" effects, and also some really excellent new reverbs. I'm not mad keen on all the legacy effects, but there are a few gems in there - I like the sweep filter a lot for cheesy 70s funk rhythm stuff, and the Dimension (chorus) is also very much to my taste. Perhaps inevitably, there is now a newer still 2.52 firmware update, which has no new effects, but does fix a few bugs that became apparent after 2.50 was released.
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"Urgent" update - Line 6 have apparently pulled the 2.52 bug fix update, as there were issues with some units (this is what I read via a Helix Facebook group I'm in). Bugs in the bug fix, as it were...
2.50 seemed to be just fine on my Helix LT, to be fair, and actually 2.52, which I installed yesterday, also seems fine so far. I guess I'll just wait for developments anyway.
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I didn't think the smooth jazz clip posted above sounded anything special, frankly, or any better than what a Boss Katana or a Yamaha THR could do. There is quite an audience for clean, authentic sounds, far beyond the jazz world, yet no demoes available, what is a company like Line6 thinking?
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Fair enough - I did quite like it myself, and thought the patch might make a good starting point for me to work from, which has proven to be the case. I think demos on Youtube etc. only tell you so much anyhow, but I do agree about the lack of clean sound demos, and for my taste, there is a general (not just Line 6) over-emphasis on distorted tones with guitar gear, and lately the whole djent thing, which I'm just not a fan of. But that's market forces in action, and we jazzers are unfortunately a minority. My view is that the Helix could do with a few more clean-oriented amp models, but the ones it does have are good, and in terms of the general and effects sound quality, I'm happy. Originally Posted by m_d
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I think it's good, not great, and wasn't criticizing the guitarist, who plays fine. I was just expecting more, sound-wise. I was under the impression that clean-oriented amp tones are quite popular. If Line6 would just hire a pro to do a 2-minute demo proving that it can sound, say, like a classic Fender amp, I would buy their device. Absent such demos, I just won't. I find their strategy hard to understand. Originally Posted by Meggy
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Well, thinking about it, I have to agree with you - it surely wouldn't be too much of an outlay for them to put a well-recorded demo of clean tones and jazz-oriented stuff on Youtube, and it ought to sell them a few more units. A minority we are, but still a significant one. So yes, you're right there! Originally Posted by m_d
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I just want to say that I never use the stock presets found in helix. The resources for clean jazz tones are practically non existent but a lot can be learned from the ones who have dived in and created complex (and simple) patches.
there's no way around customizing presets for yourself. so many variables that it isn't likely you find a tome that's perfect for you. But certainly you can find templates that can be modified to your tastes.
Here are a couple of my favorite resources for programming the Helix.
This guy does great presets. Worth checking out his demos on YouTube. Not a jazz guy but his presets can be learned from and used as templates. very wide variety of sounds with lots if care taken to get them right. Rich and complex. Special effects and his preset packages come with IRs as part of the deal. again, you won't use them all but there is fertile ground here to cull some great sounds.
Fremen Presets - Supercharge your guitar modeler
Jason Sadites series on creating tones w Helix. Jason is a good classic rock guy and has a great ear and does this series with lots of detail on programming. I highly recommend Checking out his channel.
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Just seen this on a Helix Facebook group I'm in, from Frank Ritchotte at Line 6, regarding the recent issues with firmware 2.52 update:
"Hey guys as you know our hotfix release had some issues for a few users coming from older firmware. We apologize for this and have pulled 2.52 down till it’s fixed next week.
To be clear the issue is the updater not the content. If you got 2.52 successfully (most did) it’s fine and you will not need to reload it when the new version releases.
Right now it looks like 10 or so users had their units frozen by the update. All of those customers will get new units on Tuesday. We are not going to make you wait for us to fix them...it was our fault. Apologies and we have a new test item for all releases going forward to prevent this in the future."
So, as someone who got 2.52 installed quickly on the day of release, before it was temporarily pulled, it looks like I don't have to do anything and all is good. Only of interest to those with Helix's I know, but for what it's worth, and in the interest of getting the information out there.
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As much as it can be a surprise for us, the vast majority of players don't care for clean sounds. I follow the TGP modelling section, since my conversion to modelling (4 years ago) - and almost no one uses clean sounds. And when they claim they do, their idea of "clean" is very different from ours... it's sort of a Deluxe Reverb on 10
Jazzers don't push the market. Kurt Rosenwinkel has used an AXE-FX, a Kemper and a Helix - and I haven't seen that spark any interest. But I can imagine a "smooth jazz" tone being of interest to hobby players who might explore some "jazzy" sounds occasionally.
It's sad, but we're not even a minority - we're a rarity!
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I agree with Michael's post - never, ever, rely on patches. One of the downfalls of converting to modelling and buying one of these unts, is how much you need to learn - eq, compressor, amp parameters, impulse response, effects, etc... But once you learn how to dial your sound from scratch, you'll get a unit that will deliver "your sound" anytime, anywhere. No amp will do that.
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I'm not one to rely on other people's patches, but I did want to just see how a couple were put together. But yes, one does have to spend time getting things set up for personal requirements - which can be viewed as fun, or a pain in the bum depending on one's outlook. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
As much as it can be a surprise for us, the vast majority of players don't care for clean sounds. I follow the TGP modelling section, since my conversion to modelling (4 years ago) - and almost no one uses clean sounds. And when they claim they do, their idea of "clean" is very different from ours... it's sort of a Deluxe Reverb on 10
Jazzers don't push the market. Kurt Rosenwinkel has used an AXE-FX, a Kemper and a Helix - and I haven't seen that spark any interest. But I can imagine a "smooth jazz" tone being of interest to hobby players who might explore some "jazzy" sounds occasionally.
It's sad, but we're not even a minority - we're a rarity!
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I agree with Michael's post - never, ever, rely on patches. One of the downfalls of converting to modelling and buying one of these unts, is how much you need to learn - eq, compressor, amp parameters, impulse response, effects, etc... But once you learn how to dial your sound from scratch, you'll get a unit that will deliver "your sound" anytime, anywhere. No amp will do that.
And a lot of jazzers aren't interested in modelling/effects units either, perfectly legitimately of course, which cuts down the numbers further. So perhaps it really isn't worth a company's time pursuing. That said, re the Helix, the facilities for clean tones that Line 6 have seen fit to provide still strike me as excellent, and who knows, one day (probably when it's gone out of fashion) I may suddenly fancy a bit of djent...
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Yes, that's a very good point - analysing other people's patches to see how they arrived to their sound! My point was more that some people buy modellers and never go past patches, and judge how good a unit is based on that....
Yes, the Helix provides excellent clean sounds, I'm positive. If Line 6 does not promote that, is because they know is now worth it
Please, anything but djent!!
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As a new Helix user (3 days) I am both pleasantly surprised/delighted and at the same time overwhelmed with all the alternatives. The greater part of my time so fall has been reading the ... manual, just trying to get a handle on it all, and taking in a few of the vid´s that people have made. The one referred to above was not to my taste, but it gave me a starting point on how to start making my own patches, which at this point was good, aslo giving a bit of orientation as to the function of all the different adjustments. I have not graduated to the stage where I try IR´s, but this past hour I have started exploring patch making myself. I have been very pleased with using bass amps and cab´s in this first round.
I did look the first day in to a few of the pre installed patches and thought that some had a usable tone, or at least could be tweeked, however upon looking again I can not find any of them. There are so many variables that it would be good to have some sort of inherent logic, which I hope to get out of examining the presets. If there is any other way to go, please share, I will do the same if I find anything.
I guess its an age thing, but I had to look up "djent".
Cheers
0zoro
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Ozoro - as a still inexperienced user myself, I think one thing I can say is that you will already know a lot about putting elements of a patch together, so don't be afraid to just dive in and have a go. The same principles still apply - try different things, find effects you like, combine them in what seems an appropriate way. Also with the amps and cabs - try different ones, adjust the eq and volume/gain controls - see which give you tones you like. Combine with effects, etc. etc. Don't be too intimidated or bamboozled by all the internet experts - some will have worthwhile things to say, but you do know enough already yourself. And trust your own ears!
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Meggy, I am flattered by the belief you showed in my abilities to put together a proper patch! I didn´t mean to over play my ability, nor the lack of it. The comment came out of 1. the mind boggling number of options available in Helix, 2. the feeling that there could be some sort of logic that can be used sometime/all the time that will make things easier. I have looked at Jason Sadites series and found it instructive, if not exactly my cup of tea. The bit about starting with the last couple of effects, EQ, Reverb, perhaps some Modulation I found to be a good starting point.
It would be interesting to compare notes with you, Jorge, Michael and anyone else that has taken the plunge. This could be done by either description, or simple sharing of patches as an example, or preferably both. There are of course other variables like what guitar is used, and what one is playing out of, amp, FRFR speaker, other device. BTW I actually commented Jason Sadites series and asked him to make a vid targeting the needs of a jazz guitarist, which he said he would do, which could be interesting. I suppose I am just like most people with this thing, I can have great fun playing around with it just experimenting, and at other times I don´t feel exxperimental at all, and sometimes have forgotten to save my patches. Urrrk!
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I don't have an Helix, but here's what I would do - keep in mind I play mainly archtops with a clean sound.
1) Find an amp that I like. I don't care if it sounds like the original, I care it sounds good. I want it to be 100% clean, with minimal sag and compression. A Twin Reverb model would probably be my first try, even if it's too bright, bassy or mid scooped (that is very easy to remedy).
2) Find the best impulse response to match the amp. The most important things are clarity, definition, presence and timbre. Excess bass or treble, unless overwhelming, once more are not a problem. I believe the Helix has a high cut / low cut section here, that would use, combined with the amp's bass and treble until I've achieved a balanced sound.
3) Given I have a good sound already from point 1 and 2, I would use two tools to further improve things: a studio compressor and a graphic or parametric eq. I would use the compressor to "soften" things up, but in a very light way, no "squashy" sounds. Threshold is essential here, as is ratio. It takes a while to learn about compressors, but trust me, it is worth it. As for the eq I would use it to shape the mids, which is very important - bass and treble have already been taken care of.
4) I would shape the effects, which to me would mainly be delay and reverb. I personally like a light short reverb with high pre-delay. avoiding the "slapback" sound. Any spacious sound I would get from delay, which I use always on.
5) Add more effects, like overdrive or other crazy stuff, if needed.
Hope this helps.
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I would be happy to share my basic clean patch. I think what I'll do is post up a series of screen shots of the significant portions from Helix Edit.
All my patches are set up for live playing thru an FRFR system, not for recording. My basic clean model is a Fender twin set up with the signal chain being: Guitar -> Amp -> Speaker -> A/B split or split crossover -> Effects (usually just chorus, delay and reverb) -> EQ(s) -> Compression.
I used to do a traditional Guitar -> Effects -> Amp chain but after studying Jason Sadites videos have since modified my chain and I much prefer this set up for more control.
This is is a fluid thing. I have a basic setup that is totally useable but I'm not beyond tweaking and modifying - it's fun. Generally, I run the splits and EQs for tonal control. My effects are generally light and are used to create ambience and stereo widening for a fuller sound ( I have to compete with horns and keys/synths).
I have a couple of hours off tomorrow and I'll post up some stuff. I can't over emphasize this is just for reference. Your own set ups, guitars, speakers and amps etc may not be satisfied by my patch. There are so many variables involved that could render my patch useless to you, lol. But that's ok. It's just an example. So I'll post up examples tomorrow and maybe a short video clip of the "sound in the room" for reference.
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Hej Michael and Jorge!
Thanks for the input. I don´t know if it is becoming clear to you, but one reason for my wonderings centered around the Helix is that i have had no idea as to the function of pedals, where to put them in a chain, nor in what order. Your respective replies have been of help to me in understanding, and being able to apply a basic systematic approach. Experimentation can then be used to branch out, learn new things etc. This basic problem has arisen out of not knowing any guitarists, with the exception of a younger ex colleague who plays punk, and it has never occurred to me to ask him. Very grateful!
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Only for what it's worth, but the general order I've tended to use is: compression - modulation - amp model - cab model/IR - eq - delay(s) - reverb. If I was using any kind of drive pedal, I'd put it between the compression and modulation. But if I was using the amp model to generate overdrive, then I can see why you'd have the modulation after the amp/cab. Also if using stereo modulation effects - again makes sense to have them after the amp/cab. So maybe I should try that even on the clean patches - a case of old habits die hard perhaps.
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Here is a screen shot of my amp and speakers in my basic patch.
You can see the signal routing on the very top
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I have my split crossover settings at 650Hz and I have the top band at 51% and my bottom band at 65% so I've got a slight boost to the overall lows for fullness and then the rest is fixed in the EQ (parametric section). I'm trying not to crush the amp sound so my adjustments are small and I've tuned this to my QSC K10. Here I felt I was getting a full low end without it being too woofy and then pulled the highs back in with a little presence and slight upper midrange EQ boost. My compression is set very minimal.
I pretty much dialed in my patch with the tone knobs slightly rolled back on my guitar (around 8) that way I can quickly add a little highs back in if I need them or run full if the room is dark sounding. This generally gets me in the ball park. Now, my guitar is nothing to write home about, It's an Ibanez AG95 with stock humbuckers and 12 flats and it's really not what I would consider a great jazz guitar for sound but it works for now. I can't wait to upgrade my guitar and dive in deeper. I played a students GB10 thru this patch one time and it definitely had a different sound and the truth is, you get out what you put in to it so I'm looking forward to an upgrade this year on the guitar.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, I have a volume pedal in the signal chain up front and I also have a looper. I only use the looper to help me dial in a sound - I set up a loop with a few phrases and riffs and then loop them while I play with the EQs and such. It's just there as a tool for constructing the patch. After I'm done ball parking the sound, I get out of the looper and then dial in the rest playing live. I also take breaks because I reach a point where I go "tone blind" and then I can start doing wacky stuff because I loose perspective on a sound after 10 or 20 minutes. The break helps me use "fresh ears".
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Thanks Michael Everyone has their own needs and conditions, but I find it very helpful to be aided in this without hving to invent the wheel myself. The bit about tone blindness setting in after a while is really something I can relate to, which even increases may thanks for your sharing. I will delve deeper later. Many thanks again, 0zoro
ps One of the pre amp settings I have enjoyed thus far is the the Studio Tube Pre. On my, or I should say through, my Gallien & Krueger mb200, bypassing the pre amp there and going through the aux in port, I get a nice tubish sound, worm and round. Settings in a more specific sense are still not settled but it is a nice place to start from.
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Hi Michael I have dialed in and tested your basic settings, which to my ear sound very good. Again I do not know how much difference switching my head and cab for a FRFR, but it sounded good anyway. Haven´t gotten as far as splitting signals, but do not see that as far off. Its the learning curve.
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