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BigMike got it right
Listen to the wise man !
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11-12-2017 05:06 PM
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More conspiration theory?
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I am getting serious about getting one of the XL-1 "standard" models - thanks
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I don't see how it's possible for that many seconds to even exist. That is, ISTM, a significant percentage of the total production that GC is selling.
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They are also on sale in Europe. I guessing they where a commercial failure and now they are clearing stock.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
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After reading all the posts your theory seems the most probable to me too. Originally Posted by Lobomov
Lowering a product's price in such a significant way isn't only kind of a finger for all previous purchasers, it's also blocking any way back.
So may be it remains that cheap and they're still making a profit, then they admit (involuntarily?) the guitar was way overpriced before, not nice to realize for loyal customers.
Or its discontinued after the stock has sold off..
Anyway, all of you that love this kind of axe, get yourself one ASAP, at Thomann the natural (blonde) is already sold out.
Thanks for all the answers to this thread!
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I don't understand the ISTM acronym. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Generating a lot of seconds is easy -- just design a bad tuner orientation jig and put it into production and 100% of the production run will be defective. I asked other people to post photos in the offset tuner thread to learn if this was a problem of inconsistency in manufacturing or whether it's an intentional design feature. (If it were an intentional design feature to simulate the lop-sided tuners on an original DA, I would have expected the ad copy to feature a byline that says something like "historically accurate tuner positioning.")
The news that the blowout sale has gone trans-Atlantic is interesting. We could be looking at a textbook case of excessive manufacturing capacity resulting in price deflation. There's not a lot of demand for 17-inch archtops in the guitar world, compared to a Strat, Tele or LP. If DA overestimated the market demand for these guitars and produced too many of them, then they may just have to reduce prices to find homes for all of them. What strikes me as odd is that they're suddenly trying to find homes for all of them at a low price point, with what seems like a sense of urgency.
Normally, business guys like to start with high pricing to capture all of the available buyers at the high price point, and then do small price reductions over an extended period of time, so that they can capture the highest possible price from as many people as possible; once the demand at a price tier has been satisfied, they reduce the price to make the item attractive to a new price point customer. That model allows them to extract the maximum total revenue from the population of buyers.
In this case we're seeing prices that were stable for a long time, and then suddenly slashed dramatically for a blowout sale. This makes me wonder if the production run was financed with other peoples' money, and the loan agreement notes are coming due, such that the inventory has to be blown out to raise cash to meet a deadline. This is pure speculation, of course, but it happens all the time when people finance business ventures with bank money. If I were faced with a problem like that I would have asked the biggest dealer to help me blow them out for the holidays.
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Here's a 1958 D'Angelico made by the man himself currently for sale at Lark Street Music for $35k. Check out the tuner alignment.
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I don't buy into the first theory but I'm willing to put money on them becoming discontinued Originally Posted by DonEsteban
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I agree, not to the least because Thomann has put it on "sold out". Originally Posted by Lobomov
I don't buy into the first theory but I'm willing to put money on them becoming discontinued
They only do that when they un-list an article, otherwise they set it to "Ordered, arrival expected around..."
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Thanks for that hint, I downloaded the original picture in HighRes and put it in my GuitarPorn folder .... :-) Originally Posted by WilliamScott
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All these constipation theorists can guess away.
Fact is Guitar Center is failing, they're selling off gear at rock bottom prices, maybe taking a loss, just to clear the inventory off their books so they don't get taxed for it at the end of the year.
I think it is very much like Gibson calling these CME fire sale Gibsons "floor models" and "blems" or models so they gave "the wink" to CME to sell them below the MAP, the street price.
These two entities (Guitar Center and Gibson) have serious inventory problems and financially could both go under. Guitar Center has been rescued too many times. GC and Gibson tried to be in too many markets, carry too many brands and instead of focusing on a smaller group of great gear diluted their image. They desperately need to lose a lot of dead weight... Can they do it ?? Only time will tell. I think Guitar Center may fold. Gibson is such a well respected brand that at some point they'll get bought up by someone who will try to shine her up and set her right financially.
Big
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I Second that Motion Originally Posted by BeBob
Well that was the reason for starting this thread. I was hoping for some insider blowing the whistle. But it was a nice conversation anyway, so thanks again to everyone!In this case we're seeing prices that were stable for a long time, and then suddenly slashed dramatically for a blowout sale. This makes me wonder if .......
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The inventory tax based sale is an interesting theory, but it's speculation like everything else in this thread. It's just as plausible that the blowout sale was just another pre-black-Friday sale or an overstock liquidation. Do we know that GC uses calendar-year accounting? Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
I doubt that this is the Guitar Center is Failing Liquidation Sale. When that happens we'll see prices slashed on everything. In the interim GC is going to stay open as long as it's creditors are willing to extend it's credit. For comparison: the USA has been operating at a loss for a long time and remains hopelessly encumbered with debt. That's going to continue as long as the creditors are willing to lend money.
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Well folks, debates aside, it's time to buy if you can afford to. Good luck on any purchases as there are some amazing deals out there both at Guitar Center and CME via their Gibson blow out... WOW.
Big
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More speculation:
We know that the guitars being sold at GC had two types of serial number prefixes on them: "US" and "S." Nobody has ever offered an explanation for the difference in the serial number prefixes, but the tuner alignment problem seems to be limited to guitars that have the "S" prefix. They seem to be consistently askew, with the G string being the worst. I wonder if they had a problem where a bad jig got used in production, such that an entire run of guitars had the askew tuner problem, which would have made them seconds.
I'm guessing here, but I wonder if the "S" prefix has anything to do with being a second. It would have been hard to discount the S prefix but not the US prefix while both are in the inventory pipeline, so maybe they just slashed prices on both, being willing to sell a few proper "US" ones while blowing out all of the askew-tuner "S" ones. Just a guess on my part. The fact that the price has jumped back up to US$900 now has me hoping that the guys who are buying at the higher price are getting guitars without the tuner problem. Again, just a guess on my part.
It would be interesting to know if the guitars being sold at the higher price point include ones with askew tuners and "S" serial numbers or if they are all "US" guitars without the tuner problem. A few days ago I checked for stock within driving distance but nothing was available in my locale. Stock was available only in the natural finished guitars at stores farther away. No sunbursts anywhere in my region. Going to those stores with stock would have required an expedition type of drive, so I put it off until this weekend. Now that the weekend has arrived none of the guitars are in-stock anywhere within driving distance, and only the blondes are in-stock online.
It'd be interesting to know what kind of guitars they're shipping at the $900 price point. It makes me wonder if we all got a killer deal because there were some lopsided tuners in the pipeline. If anyone has bought one since the price increase please speak up -- it'd be interesting to know what they're shipping now.
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Got my new EXL-1 yesterday. It is the natural tinted model. It is a great looking guitar and excellently built. Tuners look well aligned and I do not see the bow or depression on the guitar top surface referred to in an earlier post. The serial number begins with "US". The fretboard feels comfortable and the tone and pitch are perfect. I got it for less than $800 at MusicBohemo in New Hampshire. They set it up perfectly and shipping was free. And they gave me a free set of strings and a D'Angelico T-shirt to boot. I have purchased Martin, Gretsch, G&L and Breedlove instruments. This may be the best purchase I have made thus far. I missed the Guitar Center deal by a day. I emailed them that I just missed the $599 deal because I was waiting on a response to a few questions I emailed GC before I was going to buy. They replied that they would sell me one for a little over $800 I think it was, so they made some effort to help me out.
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I bet at $599, there are still a lot of margin left to be made by both GC and D'A.
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I dont know much about Guitar Centre and its antics as we dont deal with them here. But having tried a bunch of these guitars out (Premier, Excel and Deluxe EXL-1,59 models) the difference in tone and feel /action between them all (even the same grade) was dramatic - there were marked differences between the Excel models and if anything more consistency in the Premier models. DA's marketing has fed an image of a archtop jazzbox's that are somehow consistent in quality and feel - which in my experience is an anathema. The bigger the body and the more acoustic the instrument is, the more volatile it is and the more difference the small things in the guitar's build start to matter.
We have seen it before with Epiphone, Ibanez et al. Not to say they dont make some great guitars , but there are some real high and lowlights in any production output - and some hair raising quality control issues.
As far as the new Korean DA made stuff is concerned the real winner is the SS. I got an Excel SS and Im really happy with it. And yes, sure the pickups arent anything to write home about.
I can imagine, - or rather I'm hoping, they are offloading stock to concentrate on the models that have worked better than others - although it would have been better if the company could perhaps reflect on the issues of branding some arguably indifferent guitars with one of the most respectable names in the business - I personally found the matte black deluxe EXL-1 and 59 guitars very odd indeed in both feel (sort of powdered finish) and balance of tone.
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Originally Posted by r_cc_c
You have to wonder how much it costs them to make these guitars, if they drop the price over half and they must still be making a profit.
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Street price for a quality solid body guitar in China is 120 to 150 $, wholesale under 100$ - can't say for hollow body guitars, but maybe around 300$ ?!?
Source: Friend of mine lives in China working as a freelance resourcer for European trade and industry. (When he started studying sinology in the 90s everybody thought he's crazy... :-) )
EDIT: I know these DAs are made in Korea, just as a hint...Last edited by DonEsteban; 11-20-2017 at 05:26 PM.
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What sound/tone do you like to come out of the guitar? What would you replace the Kent Armstrong Mini-Humbucker with? I have others criticize this pickup, although the comments are usually vague about why.
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I had mentioned previously, perhaps in the other EXL-1 blowout thread, that the D'Angelico guitars have never been hanging on the racks in any of the Chicago area GC stores, which has made it impossible to try them out without special ordering one. They suddenly appeared everywhere en masse immediately prior to the blowout sale. On the day that the blowout sale started, while it was still being treated as an invitation-only sale, I checked out several of the instruments. Originally Posted by gator811
I've played 5 or 6 of the Korean Excel EXL-1 instruments in my local stores and my experience was that the build quality, overall playability, and feel of the guitars was very consistent between the Excel EXL-1 models. The only exception to that statement was that one guitar had damaged headstock binding, which I imagine was caused by shop wear. I can't imagine that it would have passed QC, but then I couldn't imagine an entire run of askew tuners that made it past the QC people.
Now that the Korean Excel EXL-1 instruments are sold out in the stores and are back to being a special order item, I've noticed that the Indonesian Premier series instruments are starting to occupy rack space, in an out of the way corner in the back of the store. I haven't played them as I have zero interest in the black guitars. But their discreet appearance in the stores makes me wonder if those instruments won't be featured in an upcoming in-store sale.
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Originally Posted by gator811
That isn't the way that marketing works in the 21st Century, at least not here in the 'States. Actually, I think you've got the marketing model totally backwards.
The new DA started off producing masterbuilt guitars to establish a reputation for quality, and once that reputation was established they leveraged that reputation to enable the flooding of the market with cheap, generic quality mid-grade imports. Any MBA will tell you that the whole idea behind acquiring a legendary name does not involve selling products of the same level of quality that made the trademark legendary -- it's to leverage that name to sell lesser quality products to the mass market. Quantity is where the real money is made in manufacturing.
If the current owners of the DA brand intended to build master quality instruments then we'd see them focusing on building and selling master quality instruments. But that isn't happening. Instead they have focused on making the real money in the mass market, where the real money is made by leveraging one of the historically most respectable names in the business to attract peoples' attention to a line of "arguably indifferent" guitars that become interesting solely because of the name on the headstock.
The reality is that these are not anything but generic, well built, serviceable, mid-level Korean guitars. None of us would have likely paid any attention to the Korean EXL-1 guitars if they didn't have the DA signature headstock and tailpiece. If you take those away and replace them with a plain looking "Incheon" heastock then the guitars look completely generic and we wouldn't be interested in them any more than any other mass produced Korean instrument. Their build quality and tone is on par with other Korean mass produced instruments in this quality range. Those of us who bought those guitars were first attracted to them not because of their quality as musical instruments, but because of their visual appearance, their "bling." The visual appearance of the guitar's headstock and tailpiece shout out "Come hither!" to every jazz player who sees it. The bling plays to our perception of quality. We all have fantasies about the real DA guitar, and we're serving those fantasies by buying the cheap Korean knock-off. There, I said it -- we're giving these guitars our attention primarily because of how they look.
To the marketing staff the Korean EXL-1 is intended to be the "gateway drug", the enabler that is designed to bring us into the new D'Angelico line. The EXL-1 is the famous, desirable instrument that's most likely to attract anyone to the import DA brand. Because it's successfully drawn our attention, DA has decided to expand it's line of "arguably indifferent" to include every possible shape and appearance needed to satisfy anyone in the market for a mid-grade instrument.
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I can imagine, - or rather I'm hoping, they are offloading stock to concentrate on the models that have worked better than others - although it would have been better if the company could perhaps reflect on the issues of branding some arguably indifferent guitars with one of the most respectable names in the business...
I can't imagine that being their game plan. DA is not building these guitars, a Korean manufacturer is building them to order, right along side of guitars that they are building for someone else. I can't imagine that any focus is involved. In all likelihood what differentiates these guitars in the factory from the other guitars built in the same factory are the necks that gets attached to the bodies, and to the trim pieces that get attached -- the bling.
Typically the MBA's mass marketing effort works this way:
1) Company establishes reputation for quality with an aspirational model guitar (masterbuilts)
2) Company leverages that reputation by selling cheaper look-alikes (EXL-1)
3) Company expands production to include every possible variant for the marketplace (current model line)
4) Company discontinues unsuccessful models and focuses on the money makers
I think that DA is operating in stages 2/3 rather than stage 4. I think that we're witnessing the expansion of the DA line, not it's contraction. If the line were in contraction, then we'd see the less desirable models being blown out and discontinued. Instead we're seeing the flagship model EXL-1 being sold at a discount. If anything, that tactic is being done to seed the market with the most desirable "aspirational" model, to serve as the gateway for the entry of the me-too models into the marketplace. To me that suggests that DA thought they were in Stage 3, but has fallen back to Stage 2 and is trying to do some aggressive marketing to vitalize the brand. Of course this is just another new speculative theory on my part.
If they ever decide to blowout the DH or the SS at a price comparable to the EXL-1 blowout, I would jump on either one or both! Based upon my experience with the EXL-1 I think I'd be happy with both of those guitars.As far as the new Korean DA made stuff is concerned the real winner is the SS. I got an Excel SS and Im really happy with it. And yes, sure the pickups arent anything to write home about.
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