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I stay in Scotland, do i have to pay the shipping cost?
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11-10-2017 05:17 PM
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Beats the heck out of me as I don't work for MT, Fibonnaci or any other guitar company but you can request an invite via the link below.
Originally Posted by johnnyjazz
Martin Taylor - jazz fingerstyle guitarist
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As already pointed out I am first and foremost a player and teacher. I have agreed to act as a point of contact for Fibonacci here in France pending them finding a professional dealer. No time for retailing thank you! Hope that helps. Originally Posted by djg
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Will make enquiries for you.
David
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Response from London....................... Originally Posted by jads57
Yes, we can do a heavier neck. He just needs to give us the exact dimensions, profile that he wants.
Over to you.
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Just checked for you and this is what came back.............................. Originally Posted by johnnyjazz
UK RRP is £3999.00. USD is $$999.00 + $250.00 shipping. So either way, the price is the same.
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It didn’t get much traction because it completely misses the point. No one considers Gibson a Chinese guitar just because the stop piece comes from China.
What makes a guitar is the carve of the plates, the shaping of the neck, the actual construction of the instrument, not the provenance of the hardware. The assumption with Gibson is that the body of the guitar was crafted by a man in his fifties who started working at Gibson since he was seventeen. Someone who has probably played guitar his whole life. Everyone in the factory has been around guitars and guitar centric music their whole lives.
It could be a false impression, a silly fantasy. Regardless, people assume the parts that matter, the parts that take skill an knowledge to fashion, were made in Memphis by an institution with a long history and tradition. Hard as it seems for some to understand, it isn’t about some abstract notion of “Made in the USA” or “Made in the UK”.
But that is why Epiphone exists, for people who don’t care about that. If you believe a guitar can be made by anyone who follows an industrial workflow regardless of whether they have even seen a guitar before you should be just as happy with an Epi. After all, please remember that all Epiphone guitars proudly state on a sticker on the headstock they were inspected and set up in the US. It goes without saying that since these are clones of Gibson guitars that they were proudly “designed” in the US.
Fibonacci turns that on its head. The guitar is apparently fully made in an unknown factory in an unknown city in China. They bring it to the UK to spray a finish on it and attach hardware. At least that is what you have quoted Fibonacci as saying. Then they claim the “UK luthiers” are being disrespected.
As I said before, if they want to be forthright about why the world needs another Chinese guitar, feature the factory and Chinese craftsmen making their guitars, explain why their Chinese guitar is better than Eastman, Ibanez, Epiphone, Loar, and D’Angelico, and celebrate what they are... GREAT!
Instead, they talk about “UK finished” guitars. They talk about “parts” sourced “globally” to imply the odd tailpiece or tone cap. They talk about there being a “catch”... it costs three times as much as an Eastman (who writes that crap?!!)
Their disingenuous marketing is a turn off for me, and their pricing seems unjustified. But the guitars might prevail despite the “marketing team”. Their tone deaf defensive posturing is not likely to help.
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A couple thoughts:
I should start out by stating for the record that Martin is one of my favorite guitarists. I honestly wish him well with this business venture. I personally have no interest in this guitar, but I am sure many do. The price falls between many Asian made alternatives and the lower end of luthier built instruments. It sounds like a nicely made, small shop factory guitar. I suspect that 15” is comfortable to play, and a thicker, higher arch might make it somewhat feedback resistant, but as in all things guitar, these features comes at the expense of its acoustic voice.
I personally do find some of the marketing a bit distateful in that it uses the term “team of master craftsman” and “luthier” a bit too loosely for my liking. This is not unique to them. It is obviously targeted at players who do not understand guitar construction which makes sense. It is an interesting supply chain concept to control the product cost. I know of another guitar still in the works that follows a similar (not exactly the same) approach (far east manufactured to a master builder’s specs and assembled and set up domestically by a master builder).
Even within the luthier community the term “master” is used to loosely for my liking. The whole concept of “apprentice”, “journeyman” and “master” has been diluted by internet marketing in recent times. The term “master” in my view should be limited to those artisans who have truly mastered the craft over decades (the total process of conceiving and creating an instrument). The whole subject of handcarving vs. CNC is absolute puffery in my opinion. How a plate is roughed out matters little (e.g. by hand, duplicator or CNC) what matters is how the wood was cut, who selected it, how it was seasoned, how it was joined and who designed the hand scraped the plates. I understand that they are trying to differentiate the product, hence the “spiel”.
My $.02
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What I find compelling about the Joya is the string spacing, its acoustic properties, and the smaller body size. Many archtop guitars are voiced for pick style and for playing with rhythm section. This guitar seems to have certain elements of a flat-top combined with characteristics of an archtop. That's attractive to me.
But I have some problems with the aesthetic design of the guitar itself. The upper bout seems too small compared to the lower, and the cutaway joins the body pretty far back. I'm not sure to what extent the tonal concerns dictated the aesthetics, but it's an odd looking little guitar. And I don't care for the single volume knob. Why not just put a volume wheel under the pickguard if you don't want a tone knob? Maybe if I saw one in person and had a chance to play it I'd change my mind.
It does also bother me a bit that Mr. Taylor (who I admire a great deal as a player) is in full-on marketing mode with this guitar. I wonder if the other luthiers he's worked, Mike Vanden in particular, feel like they've been thrown under the bus.
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The guitar's dimensions and proportions are perfect (to my eyes.) Remember, it's only got a 14 3/4" (375mm) lower bout.
But $4,999 is $6,665 CDN. That's a lot of money to me. I could take my wife on a great cruise instead of focusing on my own wants.
I have no doubt it is a fabulous instrument but at that price, it would need to be The One.
It sounds great. But then Martin could make a $600 Epiphone lam job sound great.
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If you like the specs but not the price, go with the OTHER Martin Taylor archtop guitar:
Peerless Martin Taylor Maestro | Guitars 'n Jazz
Peerless Guitars - Fine Archtop Jazz Guitars & Thinline Electric Guitars
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I wonder how the Maestro compares in quality to the Joya? Originally Posted by medblues
I know the Maestros sell in the mid $2K usd range
Martin sounds just as fabulous on the vids I have seen him in playing the Peerless as the Joya.
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I can't speak to the Joya but I own a Maestro and the quality to top notch. I purchased mine from Guitar's N Jazz. Setup was great. The only thing I did to the guitar was widen the spacing at the saddle. There was plenty of room on either side of the neck to widen the spacing a bit. I suspect that folks at Peerless just installed a bridge from their other archtops so it didn't take advantage of the slightly wider neck. As far as I can tell the physical spec's (Joya and Maestro) are identical. I am glad that Peerless mounted the volume control on the pickguard and not the body of the guitar.
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Martin seems to get a pretty good tone form his Peerless Virtuoso here which is the lower cost lami model. Originally Posted by rob taft
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I have a black Maestro I bought from Doc Dosco with the same high quality experience. I kept the bridge as it is. I had to repair the grounding to the tailpiece. The pickup has a buzz that is louder than my other guitars but it is not bothersome to me (improved after proper grounding). Originally Posted by rob taft
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Let the Seller Beware! This scenario brings the Sadowsky Archtops to mind. (Something about Jim Hall and his D’Aquisto.) Manufactured in Asia and sold in the US and Europe at a premium price. I may have missed the hue and cry at the time. I must say that Martin Taylor does hype a lot of instruments. I was very tempted to order a Vanden, and always thought the Yamaha was a great guitar.
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As far as I know, Sadowsky archtops are currently made in Japan. Several Japanese brands deserve their premium price, at times these guitars are better value than guitars made in the US or elsewhere. So I don't think it is fair to speak about Asian guitars, as if it is all the same. There can be huge differences (though not always) between those made in Japan, China, Korea, Indonesia or the Philippines.
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Yes, the Sadowsky archtops are built in a very small facility in Japan (I saw some photos online a few years ago - it was more of a workshop than a factory) before heading to the NYC shop for final tweaks and set-up. It's been a long time since anyone went to Japan to build a cheap guitar. Originally Posted by stevus
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True, as a buyer better go there for higher-end guitars at a competitive price, or local bargains on the used market. Originally Posted by David B
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Blackcat,
I applaud your efforts to clarify the intent of Fibonacci as it relates to this $6000 USD Asian / Uk hybrid . It would certainly take the talents of a Martin Taylor ( who by the way is my favorite guitar player) - to help promote this product.
No sense in repeating the skepticism / consensus of our jazz guitar forum
members - but time will ultimately tell if this offering is superior to the Peerless carved MT, which is 1/2 the price - with plenty of availability.
The market / players always determine
the fate of these new products . Since as you say the JOYA is the best seller- are there any forum members or other references you can provide for us to obtain some other opinions / viewpoints of this guitar.
I for one would like to learn more about what players think - especially on their decision to buy this guitar over a Campellone , Andersen , Benedetto , Gibson etc. - all of which have respectable market presence and predictable resale value.
Perhaps there really is something magical about this guitar - if so , we need feedback from players.
Thanks for all your responses to our questions.
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A couple thoughts regarding the “Joya”.
Like others here, I am a big fan of Martin as a player. He has been one of my favorite players for many years. When we saw him play earlier this year, his was playing his “Joya”. As usual, plugged into the PA he sounded fantastic. I have seen him play with his Yamaha, Vanden and Peerless over the years and he always sounds great. Martin is a great player, and always sounds great no matter what he plays. I think Martin who tours globally, likes having a small bodied instrument with wider string spacing that is replacable to tour with.
I am on Martin’s mailing list and I have been bombarded with an endless barrage of promotional emails hyping the guitar. I don’t begrudge him trying to make a living through instrument promotion, guitar camps, online educational materials etc to supplement touring. It is difficult for jazz artists to make a living these days since the collapse of the recording industry. I choose to support Martin via Patreon.
Regarding the $5,200, 15” carved archtop, well what can I say? A carved 15”, 24-5/8” scale length, instrument in itself is a strange choice in my opinion. This is primarily an electric instrument. Honestly, I am uncertain why they did not go with a laminated top. Once you go below 16” particularly with a shorter scale length, getting acoustic performance out of an instrument is a tough challenge, even for the most masterful luthiers.
It is a factory guitar, like today’s Benedettos. I am sure that it is a descent instrument, but it is made by a team. Martin tries to equate the building team to a luthier in the promotional videos which is very much marketing in my view. The hardware choices seem to be of descent quality and it comes in a Hiscox flight case. Last I looked, there is no such thing as “AAA American Spruce” (Engelmann, Red or most likely Sitka etc.) or “American Flamed Maple” (most likely Bigleaf Maple). I personally do not think of any factory guitar in the same way as an instrument made by an experienced luthier.
My $.02
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Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
I am not sure about your thoughts that smaller size archtops should be laminated. For some people, like me, a 17" just feels too big. I have tried a solid top 15", and just loved it. It may be a compromise but still can sound pretty good. Regrettably, just like with laptops, the smaller they are, the more expensive to keep the same quality. That may be the case with the Joya too. Here's my current favourite 15" with floater, played by Romain Pilon. It's a Japanese Westville:
Last edited by stevus; 10-03-2018 at 06:58 AM.
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I think that smaller archtops are ergonomically wonderful! Roger Sadowsky did very well with his 15" models. Laptops and guitars do not share the same cost drivers. Finding quality billets in larger sizes always costs more and carving time increases with size. My point on a carved 15" guitar vs. a laminated one was the increased stiffness of the smaller lower bout and reduced body volume makes acoustics challenging even for the best of luthiers. You get some aspects no doubt, but at that size, a high quality laminate makes more sense to me for the traveling musician playing plugged in. Martin also mikes his guitar to supplement the magnetic pickup and he get's a touch of acoustic sound. Originally Posted by stevus
Fibronaci/Martin Taylor have a similar business model to Roger Sadowsky in that both have the guitars made in the Asia (Roger in Japan and Fibonaxci/MT in China) and assembled/set up domestically (Roger in USA and Fibonacci/MT in the UK). Both companies associate jazz players with an instrument as a marketing draw. Both focus on direct sales to the customer. Fibonacci went one step further in really involving Martin in the front end consumer marketing (perhaps the influence of Martin's savy business manager and son James?).
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Evidently for the travelling musician a (smaller) laminated guitar will be more convenient, ergonomically, weight, as well as less feedback prone in venues. It may not be coincidence that these days you see on stage the better younger players with smaller guitars.
Are you sure they do that in NY? You can get Sadowsky guitars in Tokyo fully assembled/set up as well.
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If any of you should be Denmark bound on 6th-7th October.................
SEE THIS BEAUTIFUL FIBONACCI CALIFORNIAN AT THE COPENHAGEN GUITAR SHOW | FIBONACCI GUITARS
For the record, Martin is not the only Fibonacci endorsee. London-based player Nigel Price now has his own model called, perhaps unsurprisingly 'The Londoner' and Guildford, UK- based Giorgio Serci has featured the Californian recently:
Brixton based Ciyo Brown has his own version of the all-carved Chiquita with two pickups seen here shortly after receiving his model:
Lots going on. Thanks to all who have made constructive observations.
David
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