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From what I understand and this has been alluded to in previous postings, the basic guitar manufacturing i.e. carving, assembly etc. is done overseas than assembled and finished in the UK.
This is much like the way my Eastman custom shop was done i.e. the neck and body were manufactured in Eastman's plant in China. My Eastman top was hand-craved which is the case in nearly all of Eastmans' archtops. The unfinished body and neck were shipped to Eastman's California shop and assembled, fretted and finished in CA. The price for my Eastman reflected that US effort i.e. it was considerably more than the usual ElRey 4 but I'm very pleased with the final product.Last edited by rob taft; 11-08-2017 at 06:55 PM.
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11-08-2017 04:46 PM
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I had a go on the Vanden ( i think it is about £7000 ) and it is worth every penny.
Originally Posted by DRS
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That makes a lot of sense and good sense at that, you might be a great baker and make a deliciuos cake but not the best at putting the layers together and finishing the icing, decorating etc, so you give that job to the guy that is better. The bodies and necks might be or probably are, built to a first class finish then given to the guys in London who have the time to get it all just right including the finish and all hardware. Originally Posted by rob taft
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I make no assumptions about what "assembled" means, and look forward to David's reply.
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Originally Posted by rob taft
‘Thanks very much for your comments, much appreciated.
Our top and back plates are completely carved by hand...no rough preparatory carving by CNC machine.
Other than the founder of Fibonacci having worked for Peerless for a number of years, there is no relationship between the two companies. Peerless do not produce any Fibonacci guitars. Depending on the model and what custom requirements have been asked for by the client, depends on where the binding takes place. Due to the costs involved, none of the hand carving is done in the UK at the moment. However, we may introduce models in the future at a higher retail price point which would allow us to hand carve them in the UK.
We hope that helps answer the questions you have raised.’
David
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
It means that all the hand carved bodies ( at this point ) and laminate models are produced to the highest standards in China and arrive in the UK superbly fretted, but without any hardware. Nitro-cellulose finishes following stain/paint stages are applied in London and after curing, Gotoh machine heads, CTS pots and hand crafted tailpieces and pickguards are fitted and the guitars then strung/fully set-up by expert luthiers.
Hope that helps.
More about the former connection to Peerless ( the CEO and founder/designer of Fibonacci, Graham Esson introduced Peerless to EU countries perhaps ten years ago before moving on to establish this new marque ) under the rubric 'About us' at FIBONACCI GUITARS
David
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David, are the necks already fitted to the body before arriving in London.
Cheers John.
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David: Thanks for your illuminating replies.
-top and back plates completely carved by hand...no rough preparatory carving by CNC machine.
-model & custom requirements requested by client affects where body is bound.
-no hand carving currently done in UK.
-future higher-priced models may be hand-carved in the UK.
-all current hand-carved bodies & laminate models are produced in China, arrive in UK fretted, without hardware.
-Nitro-cellulose finishes following stain/paint stages - applied in London.
-Gotoh machine heads, CTS pots, hand crafted tailpieces/pickguards fitted & guitars strung/set-up by expert luthiers.
What kind of cases are provided with these guitars - Hiscox?
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I think this is where so many people are having problems. It feels an awful lot like super cool marketing hype. These guitars are not inexpensive. At £4,500 they are priced right there along with hand made instruments from Danial Slaman, Mark Campellone, etc. They are more expensive than the excellent guitars made by our own Matt Cushman and other lesser known builders.
So why would they be "thousands more pounds" if made in the UK? Slaman makes his guitars in Europe, Campellone in the US. I'm pulling a blank on a third major archtop luthier who recently relocated to Portugal. Why can't they support european craftsmen? And it isn't because I dislike the Chinese. I think Mr. Wu is making very nice guitars. So does Eastman and Peerless. But they don't pretend to be European made. Why bother spraying a finish in the UK if the important part of the guitars are being made in Asia? Why not call a spade a spade?
The reason is simple. They are trying to trade on the perceived quality of European craftsmanship, especially where related to European musical instruments, without actually using European craftsmen. They are trying to take advantage of the market distortions from China without the negative consumer association. The "About us" page on their website sums it up. They are the "marketing" team in the UK who split with Peerless, probably because they felt they could market their Asian guitars as European.
So these guitars may be excellent. There is certainly no lapse in quality from some of the top end Asian guitars. What they are not are European made. Or particularly cheap.
As for Martin Taylor's endorsement, there is no doubt that he is an excellent musician. He even seems very personable and nice. However, he is not exactly sparing in his endorsements. Now that he has his "marketing genius" son managing him, I've noticed quite a few more questionable --but always super cool-- marketing maneuvers from him. Podcasts, giveaways, contests, etc.
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Yes they are. Originally Posted by johnnyjazz
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Hiscox fully insulated flight cases. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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The cynic in me wonders if this was the "marketing" team who were responsible for trying to virtually double the price of Peerless guitars in the UK a few years ago. A decision that did not seem to be justified by any increase in quality. I seem to remember a somewhat similar story as to why Peerless represented such good value at the inflated price. Originally Posted by rlrhett
I agree with rlrhett that the emphasis seems to be on sprinkling the fairy dust of 'hand-finished in the UK' onto an essentially Asian made guitar. To be clear I have nothing against Asian made guitars and I am sure that they are high quality instruments, its the price that I question.
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As someone who has spent his entire working life in marketing, I attach no value judgement to the Fibonacci marketing, procurement, and any other business management strategies.
I am always happy to hear about new carved archtop guitars, and simply curious about the instruments and how they are made. I think it's great that someone is trying to establish a new presence in the archtop market, and that the result will be more cool archtop guitars in the world.
And I'm a big fan of Hiscox cases.
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I don’t think anyone doubts you, David. There have been other “informative” posts that were little more than marketing/SEO BS masquerading as an innocent post by a fellow enthusiast. Yours are clearly not that. Originally Posted by blackcat
That said, I think if we are going to discuss a new guitar it is fair to bring up pricing and to push back a little on the marketing —not just limit the discussion to fretboard radius and such.
If you are friends with the CEO of Fibonacci you could share that their approach to marketing has had some fairly strong negative responses. No one minds him being the UK distributor of Mr. Wu (or someone comparable). We invite him to celebrate that. Mr. Wu’s guitars should be £3,500 if China wasn’t manipulating the market. Having a Yangzi or Wu properly set up with good quality components is probably a reasonable value add. Providing a local warranty and service is an excellent idea as well. What chafes so many of us is the attempt to hide what it is, and pretend what it is not.
On the other hand, we are spending more time discussing his brand than any other Chinese luthier. From a marketer’s point of view he is probably pleased as punch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Response from Fibonacci...............
Our marketing literature is quite clear on what we do and has never been anything other. But as expected, being a new player on the block, would raise many comments, some genuine and some highly speculative bordering libelous.
We do not work with Mr Wu or Yangzi and we are not quite sure how it can be determined that we are attempting to ‘hide’ anything. In fact, that comment is quite disrespectful to the designers and UK luthiers who produce many of the parts used on a Fibonacci and assemble them together ready for dispatch. What we are doing is utilising some of the best aspects of production available to us to produce beautiful archtops at a reasonable price. Giving potential archtop buyers more choice surely has to be a good thing for the market place in general.
We have many informative pictures and videos of work in progress on our News Blog page on our web site at: https://www.fibonacciguitars.com/blog
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According to the site, the peerless one is hand carved too. You should consider redoing the site to make the differences obvious. IMO, i would highlight the craftsmanship. The comment about the braided wiring is not likely to be a reason folks would purchase the hand crafted one. That comment could be a detail under the pickup/electronics link.
Great looking axe though.
Originally Posted by blackcat
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Thanks for that Jack - praise indeed! Nice to have something positive from such a respected source. Originally Posted by jzucker
However, just a bit confused - to which site do you refer? Martin's site refers to carved and not hand-carved for the 'Maestro': https://martintaylor.com/maestro/Last edited by blackcat; 11-10-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Fibonacci's response seems rather touchy. If they are happy to have someone promoting their product on the forum they should be prepared to accept a degree of critical examination of marketing claims.
I see nothing vaguely close to libelous in the comments in this thread. I think we all accept that there is no attempt to hide the fact that many elements of the guitar are made outside the UK, but to realise this one does have to somewhat read between the lines. Just look at the 'About us' section of their website. The only direct reference is 'All of the materials specified to produce a FIBONACCI® GUITAR, are seasoned and responsibly sourced without restriction, from various suppliers around the world ' and the use of the term 'hand finished in the UK' rather than 'made in the UK'. The emphasis is very much on the UK design, finishing etc in all Fibonacci's marketing.
Also the references made to Chinese luthiers such as Mr Wu by other posters were just as examples of producers of hand carved guitars and were clearly not a suggestion that this was a business relationship. It was also not a criticism of Chinese luthiers, quite the opposite in fact.
As to prices being 'reasonable' that is rather subjective and individual preference curves for the relationship between price and quality vary. One man's reasonable is another man's exorbitant
At the end of the day Fibonacci makes guitars, and what we care most about will be how they sound/play rather than the precise provenance of component parts. Ultimately the judgement of how 'reasonable' the prices are is going to be made by potential buyers not by Fibonacci and they are going to make that judgement by comparisons to what else is available for £4.5k. Who knows maybe the quality of Fibonacci guitars will be stellar and they will be viewed as a bargain, but that is a judgement the market will make.
As for me I am cautious about 'marketing led' companies be they producers of guitars, wine, watches or whatever. I prefer to see an emphasis on craftsmanship, product quality and value for money, particularly when it is essentially a new company. However, everyone's entitled to their view and YMMV.
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Oh, i see, My mistake. I read "carved" and assumed hand-carved. sorry. Beautiful axe, hope to play one some day!
Originally Posted by blackcat
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I sympathise with the OP David/ Blackcat, I think he's been simply trying to perform a service for the forum, and to some extent his comments have been conflated with the responses from the CEO, which have been rather different in tone - perhaps understandably.
I've been in the same position myself, being a fanboy and advocate in the past for mambo amps, and it's difficult to draw the line between enthusiasm for the product itself, and making inferences or claims about value for money, which is a rather different thing.
I suspect what may be drawing some fire in this thread is the claims about value for money, in a boutique guitar marketplace. Many boutique offerings - mainly handmade instruments - operate on a quite different business model from factory produced items, as most of us will be well aware. A typical handmade item is priced on the luthier's costs, labour and materials, plus his own margin - and then is sold direct to the customer - so we are aware that most of the final price represents the 'work' that has gone into the product. That's what we have come to associate with 'boutique'. Factory guitars operate on a quite different model, again as we know, where most of the RRP is made up of non-production costs ( maybe Heritage might be an exception, I don't know).
So, I think the problem comes when the lines get blurred - as perhaps in this case- as to which business model is applied here. We're fine about paying ( for example) $3K for a 175, and are probably aware that it costs maybe $1K to make or whatever, because we know that the value lies in the design and past R&D and refinement, and that's OK if the factory does a good QC job. We're also fine if we know that ( for example) Daniel Slaman has put his effort into crafting something handmade, taking many hours to do it. These are different - but both valid- definitions of "value for money".
It's not so clear in this case. But, as had been said, the market will decide.
Like some of us, I've been in marketing too. One good thing this thread has thrown up is some valuable (if very direct) feedback, and I'd suggest it's worth listening to and trying to understand.
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And a carved, arched top, acoustic too ( superb tone ) The 'Roma' Originally Posted by blackcat
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I really like the looks of the Diablo model. Reminds me of the Benedetto Bambino a bit. Blackcat do you know if these can be ordered with a larger neck profile say '59 Gibson like?
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Is it cheaper to order the guitar via Martin Taylor,s site as opposed to Ivor Mairants?
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Received the email below from Martin Taylor's website: Click on the link. The cost in US Dollars as of today is $4999.00 and $250.00 shipping. Originally Posted by johnnyjazz
--------------------------------------------From Martin Taylor---------------------------------
It's finally here! After two years of prototyping and testing
I'm delighted to announce that you can now order your
own Martin Taylor 'Joya' guitar HERE >>.
There has been a lot of buzz about this guitar, and well...
Guitarist Magazine call it "a stunner" and give it a rave
review in their latest issue.
This is the deal - since 2015 I've been working with a
small group of master craftsmen in England... and we've
developed a hand-carved archtop guitar which feels good
to play, sounds great and looks absolutely stunning.
From it's beautiful hand-carved solid spruce top to its
flame maple back and solid spruce sides, you can see
from this video the quality craftsmanship and love we've
put into designing this instrument.
However I have to warn you about one big "catch"...
A lot of guitarists expect to pay tens of thousands of
dollars for a hand-crafted archtop guitar like this...
however I've made the pricing for the Joya ridiculously
low. In fact, I'm worried that it's too low.
You see... I've designed a very high-end guitar, but
the pricing might lead you to believe that it's some
entry-level archtop.
Don't make that mistake... this is an incedible instrument,
and you're going to love all the bonuses we're adding. And
I can tell you that we've had guitarists from 83 countries
who have already expressed interest in owning one.
OK... now that we have that "catch" out of the way, here's
the link to the crazy "owners club" special offer:
CLICK HERE for Joya details
best regards,
Martin
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....costs $5,000. lol Originally Posted by rob taft
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