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Looking at a vintage archtop and had the seller send me a picture of the truss rod. Seems like an awful lot of screw showing. I know you can extend the adjustment by putting a washer in but is this indicative of the truss rod sinking in at the other side? (My luthier indicated that he has seen this issue frequently on used gibson archtops. Sometimes an issue, sometimes not)
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10-02-2017 11:03 AM
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I will check with my ES-125 how much screw is showing so you can compare (that trussrod works fine). I can do the same with my ES-333, but that is not vintage so might not be representative.
Last edited by Little Jay; 10-02-2017 at 01:37 PM.
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Jack I have a 2016 175 that came from Gibson looking like that. You can get brass washers that are the exact thread shaft size. I used 1 washer. Though the threads really stick out a lot the trussrod works just fine. I think their may be placement variances when Gibson installs them or maybe shaft length variances. It is hard to say though. It could be a maxed out trussrod that has dug in. Also Stewmac makes a trussrod nut with taller socket flats. I also have a Byrdland that has protruding threads and it works flawlessly. When it comes to Gibson there trussrods either work or they don't from the get-go. Also some a 1/4 turn does a lot and some a 1/2 turn barely does anything. Good old Gibson.....
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Hmm, the truss rod of my ES-125 shows quite a bit less..... but it also shows more wood after the top nut! So it might be the cut out for the truss rod access in the guitar you pictured is just a bit shifted towards the top nut.
Last edited by Little Jay; 10-02-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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IME it's impossible to tell whether it's an issue from just a picture. Too many variables are involved.
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Truss rods can be all over the place. Sometimes they do not work at all. Sometimes you have to help them with a straight block of maple and a clamp. I take all the tension off the rod the use a block to get neck straight. Then tighten the nut up snug. After this it is all about art and science.
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can you give more detail on that?
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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that's more what i'd expect. When you see 8-10 turns of thread above the nut, that seems like an indicator of a possible issue. I agree that there are too many variables involved to make a call but considering that the guitar is in HK and shipping to the USA, it seems that it might be risky/expensive to get it and find out there is an issue and be responsible for return shipping... Originally Posted by sgosnell
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IME, too many guitarists make major adjustments on truss rods by adjusting with a wrench while the strings are under tension, never stopping to think about how much load the neck is under. You are really expecting the threads/nut/rod/anchor to do a great deal of torsional work in that event. Ideally, the under-load arrangement should be for fine, not coarse adjustments.
If you have a big hump or bow to remove with a neck, you would want to do this with heat and blocks--and do the fine work with the truss rod. (i.e., loosen the rod, straighten the neck out with heat/blocks, snug the rod up, then make your final adjustments with the rod) I have seen a new ES-335 12-string with a BIG warp from too much time on the wall at concert pitch straightened out successfully this way. Had a guy bought this guitar and just flailed away on the truss rod, it would have been a disaster. (FWIW, 12-string instruments were originally intended to be tuned a step below concert pitch and capoed.)
Truss rods are like the fine adjustment on a microscope. The coarse focus adjustment is equivalent to heat/blocks.
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Thanks for posting that. OTOH, there are many times when the wood is just warped and no amount of loosening the truss rod and strings and then applying heat and blocks will fix things. I have seen examples where the neck was "straightened" under zero pressure with a loose truss rod and no strings only to see it revert back to it's previous behavior when strung up and truss rod properly adjusted. Sometimes the wood dries with a warp and there's not much you can do.
Originally Posted by Greentone
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Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Originally Posted by jzucker
Jump to 1:35.
(this video should be stickied on every guitar site)
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Jack,
Used to be less of a problem. Guitar companies had pretty good stocks of aged, dried wood. After the guitar boom of the 50s-60s, that arrangement changed forever. Guitar companies started procuring green wood and "kiln drying" it. This works, but is much less satisfactory than maintaining a stock of naturally aging lumber. (Ask the luthiers.)
Working with younger wood--speaking here about more recently cut, not how old the tree was--the wood may move on you, even after you assemble the guitar. There's only so much that a truss rod can do.
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It looks like the washer may be a " too thin " replacement washer. The washer on Little Jay's guitar is the more typical much thicker half moon style washer. A larger thicker washer or two would likely hide a couple of the threads that are showing and provide more and better support for the truss rod. You would have to ask the seller if the rod is anchored at the other end and working properly.
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I'm not seeing a huge difference in the two washers. I agree that Little Jay's washer is thicker but not enough to explain the difference in all the threading that is visible on the vintage guitar I pictured... Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
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great video but the key is that the instrument in question had a truss rod kept properly adjusted. When you buy a 40 year old guitar, there's no telling whether it was kept with super heavy or super light strings throughout it's life, left in a hot car trunk, etc. Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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It looks like five threads showing. Each thread is about .030" a thick washer is about .060" so two more washers covers all but one thread. Originally Posted by jzucker
There has probably been some wood compression at both ends of the truss rod from years of constant pressure.
Last edited by Matt Cushman; 10-02-2017 at 05:07 PM.
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I'm interpreting the photos different than you. I don't see that 2 of jay's washers gets rid of all the thread showing. I don't see that big a difference between the washer thickness in those pictures. Maybe one to 1.5 threads. Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
It looks like five threads showing. Each thread is about .030" a thick washer is about .060" so two more washers covers all but one thread. There has probably been some wood compression at both ends of the truss rod from years of constant pressure.
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for comparison, here's my '63 Gibson Barney Kessel Truss rod...
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The number of threads that are on the other side of the washer is the unknown factor. If the nut reaches the end of the threaded portion of the rod then additional washers will be needed. It is possible that there are many threads left on the rod, it is also possible that there are none.
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Jack your Barney has a additional half moon washer apparently due to the same reason. A very common trussrod fix.
Ask for a 7th fret fretboard pic with the 1st and 17th frets fretted. Tons of relief......run ! LOL.
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I'll have to look at it again. The picture is a bit too blurry to make it out but I don't think that's an "additional" washer. Gibson was using a really thick washer at some point. Here's a pic from my '89 175 which was a 1 owner guitar and never had any truss rod fixes applied. But even if you take the thickness of that washer and apply it on the original guitar I showed, there will still be significant threading sticking above the nut. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Anyway, I agree with an earlier poster saying that it doesn't really prove anything but it's worth asking a question or two...
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[QUOTE=jzucker;807168]I don't think that's an "additional" washer. Gibson was using a really thick washer at some point.
Jack
I have just been thro the pain barrier, with my Gibson trust me dont touch it the tell tale signs are there
the light is already Red it turned from yellow to red a while from what i see Jack, it appears there are 2 one is a washer the other looks like some sort of shim hard to see, Personally this is where the fun begins,
and CAN?MAY be a nightmare, but al;so there are millions of guitars as we all know when you buy something another guitar pops up shortly after. Imo dont take it. i feel its had problems already
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I just had my 2 L-7 necks / truss rods re-set, and fingerboards straightened ( 'corrected' ? ) ........I'm not sure that's the correct term, but my luthier explained to me that the 30's was 'out of threads', and the '50's was just wavey......he said he loosened the nuts, then used a heat rod (? ) and weights and must've left them to sit for a while, 'cause he had each of them for over a week......
they now both play like dreams, and it wasn't crazy money......worth every dime, and can't be that big a fix, if you have a decent luthier..........
Good luck !!Last edited by Dennis D; 10-05-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Dennis D,
This is a very good thing to do with older guitars--or with newer guitars that get way out of calibration.
It makes a BIG difference in how they play.
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Man, did it ever !...I already knew this luthier was 'minimally invasive' - -that was the inside joke.....He'd said several times he never liked to crank on old truss rods. I didn't know there were other tricks. Originally Posted by Greentone
That vid that someone posted here recently showing D Erlewine's bass tutorial was an eye opener for me. I wish I'd have known these concepts -- I'd have suggested this earlier.
Now I can watch and note how long they stay where they're now set.
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