Thomastik Infeld String Problems

[silverfoxx]

Joe,
Neatomic's suggestion is good , when I can remember I use graphite
pencil in the nut slots..which acts as a lubricant.
I;ve struggled with intonation on a recently acquired Wesmo adjusting
the string saddles etc, as I'm a pain in the derriere in wanting it spot on
Then I remembered my spare Tom bridges , I replaced one with graphtec
saddles ( also string savers ) and Bingo ! problem gone. Tho' I do prefer
The African Blackwood Bridge Assy's I got from Bill Gagnon two or three
years ago.

[Max405]

When I bought the 165, it's neck was laser straight. There was no buzz. The TI's were somewhat new. Then I played the heck out of it. Now I got a little buzz. Once these strings loosen up, they oscillate to a wider path. There is no doubt. I can feel them.
Perhaps I like my action too low. I don't know, maybe. But i is what I is.
Thanks for trying to help Neatomic and foxman.

[silverfoxx]

Joe,
You are not seeking the impossible, I like a low action on all of my
guitars, and it is achievable with a lot of patience, with bridge
adjustment, careful truss rod adjustment, assuming all else is
equal, but we don't need to tell you that. If all else fails perhaps
a visit to your luthier to check it out might solve the problem.


Best, Alan

[skiboyny]

fwiw I've found thomastik to be to low of tension to compliment the Johnny Smith guitars. They are inherently better players based on design than most other models. A low tension set such as Thomastik will cause a wider vibration of all strings. A string with more tension will buzz less. As a bonus it will vibrate the top of the JS for a nicer acoustic ring. Still not hard to play, where on a different guitar would be. In my experience each guitar will respond differently to different strings. It's just not one size fits all. I wish it were!

When I bought the 165, it's neck was laser straight. There was no buzz. The TI's were somewhat new. Then I played the heck out of it. Now I got a little buzz. Once these strings loosen up, they oscillate to a wider path. There is no doubt. I can feel them.
Perhaps I like my action too low. I don't know, maybe. But i is what I is.
Thanks for trying to help Neatomic and foxman.

[vinnyv1k]

I set all my axes up with little to no relief with med/low action. Elixir e&b with lots of post wraps. Never a buzz ever.
The gold strings go straight into the garbage can.

[vinnyv1k]

The key with TI's is lots of post wraps. The string lock method doesn't seem to work well with TI's .....IMO.

[sgosnell]

Changing strings can cause some buzz because of the difference in tension. If you have the action set as low as possible without buzzing, then just a very slight difference in string tension can cause enough difference in neck bow to cause a buzz. You need to adjust the truss rod whenever you install different strings, either different sizes or even different brands, because different brands have different tensions. If you action is a little higher, you may not notice any difference between different strings, but with the action as low as possible, it's going to be finicky, and you may need to adjust both the bridge and truss rod fairly often, because differences in temperature and humidity might cause buzzes now and then even with the same strings.

[ptchristopher3]

The key with TI's is lots of post wraps. The string lock method doesn't seem to work well with TI's .....IMO.

Hi Vinny,

A respectful alternate view:

I use T-I on several guitars and lock the strings back on themselves and find that as little as 1/2 wrap after the lock is great for extreme tuning stability.

Lots of post wraps create a friction gradient along the post that is remarkably problematic for some players and does absolutely no good whatsoever in my opinion.

But different experiences are certainly valid.

In any case, how the strings are attached at the post has no direct bearing on buzzes caused by fret contact of the vibrating string.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

To Joe and the OP:

In my opinion, buzzes at the 9th and 10th are not relief related except in absolutely absurd cases of extreme relief or so called "s-bows".

If the nut is too low, this will only manifest itself at the first fret and will not be at all substantially affected by using graphite in the slot.

In my opinion.

Chris

[vinnyv1k]

Hi Vinny,

A respectful alternate view:

I use T-I on several guitars and lock the strings back on themselves and find that as little as 1/2 wrap after the lock is great for extreme tuning stability.

Lots of post wraps create a friction gradient along the post that is remarkably problematic for some players and does absolutely no good whatsoever in my opinion.

But different experiences are certainly valid.

In any case, how the strings are attached at the post has no direct bearing on buzzes caused by fret contact of the vibrating string.

Chris

I disagree completely. I have tried both ways with Tl's. I play all high end Gibson's and with my method they never go out of tune ever nor do I have any strings go dead from round core slippage. Also you get a correct break angle tension at the nut with my method. The lock method is the lazy man method IMO. Also there is much more potential for scratching the headstock when removing lock method strings. I don't like scratches on my L5's headstock. I do not want to start another argument with you pt so let's just say you have your way and I have mine. Mine works perfectly for me and yours for you.

[Woody Sound]

I use the George Benson rounds, and I can't quite tell which plain strings those sets use.

[silverfoxx]

I concur completely with the method of stringing described
the lock method is untidy, and a quick fix.
i have always fitted strings using a hand winder , carefully
very rarely experience a string break. The strings stay in
tune , without any buzzing or extraneous noise and remain
so until the next infrequent change. Having used this method
for more than 50years it has worked quite well. Also there is
little likelihood of scratching the headstock , or myself when
the strings are clipped off after bedding in after a couple of
days. This is my 2p's worth. Although we appear to have
some dissent with a small proportion of members becoming
disagreeable with their own opinions.
Its not WW3 here it's a bit of fun for most of us.


.

[Max405]

fwiw I've found thomastik to be to low of tension to compliment the Johnny Smith guitars. They are inherently better players based on design than most other models. A low tension set such as Thomastik will cause a wider vibration of all strings. A string with more tension will buzz less. As a bonus it will vibrate the top of the JS for a nicer acoustic ring. Still not hard to play, where on a different guitar would be. In my experience each guitar will respond differently to different strings. It's just not one size fits all. I wish it were!

I never had any problems with string buzz of any kind when I got the GJS from QAMan. It was perfect. But it had the low frets. There was really very little fret there to make a string buzz. But it was difficult for me to play the kind of stuff that I play in that particular configuration. So I had the guitar refretted. When the guitar was returned to me, the action was a lot higher than I wanted it to be. So I tweaked the bridge and flattened out the neck surface by tightening the truss rod. That caused a 1st fret buzz on the low E. I could have lived with that. But after playing in the strings a bit, the High E string began to buzz at the 7-10th fret, I knew it was the strings. So Skiboy, you are right on the money. Certain strings work for certain guitars. The problem is, I LOVE TI Jazz Swing 12's and want them to work on all guitars. I am OK with the reduction in acoustic volume. So, the bottom line is, if TI changes the B and E strings to Stainless, we will have a set that we don't need to modify after we pay $25 per set. If that doesn't happen, I for one, will continue to swap out the high E string with an Elixir.

I set all my axes up with little to no relief with med/low action. Elixir e&b with lots of post wraps. Never a buzz ever.
The gold strings go straight into the garbage can.

I am always opening to new things and admitting when I am wrong. But this time I totally agree. There is no need for them. I wish they were stainless.

Joe D.

[oldane]

.... a majority of the time a too flat neck, will give you buzzing problems within the first 5 frets..sometimes just on one string, but within the first 5 frets

Indeed. It can cause buzzes from vibrating strings touching the frets. But with a too flat neck buzzes can also be generated by the sympathetically vibrating length of string between the fretted position and the nut - especially if the nut slots are where they should be: As low as possible. A bit of relief will help in both cases and will also give a more equal fretting resistance feel up and down the neck (again provided the nut slots have the correct height).

[Jabberwocky]

http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/site...er_06_13sc.pdf

Happily for those on the right side of The Pond, Elixir coated plain steels are cheap. Reserve the T-I plains for slicing cheese.

[neatomic]

just to keep things straight-

all plain unwound strings are made of carbon/swedish steel

they are all* then plated with a thin layer of tin

(even the elixirs.. but then they have an additional sprayed coating of gore-tex added for rust prevention purposes...like coating your car finish)



*the exceptions being-

thomastik who also offer brass plated plain carbon steel strings...they are not gold ..they are brass!..

to call them "gold" confuses them with the rare strings that are indeed coated with gold 24k plating..like maxima/optima string company of germany


there is no such thing as an unplated plain string...

cheers

ps- high carbon steel is also known as stainless steel...and is also what d'addario calls- chromes...there are just the slightest metallurgic differences in the various formulas, but they are all basically interchangeable names in string manufacturing

[ptchristopher3]

Did not know we had some prior argument Vinny. We do not have to agree to make it a fun kicking around of the subject.

Yes of course, do as you prefer so long as you feel that it works.

I don't feel that there is an optimum break angle at the nut really. Even a Telecaster G string (absurdly little break angle) has sufficient downforce.

And the oft-overlooked shape of the nut slot will affect the force at the exit point near the FB more than string post position.

And our little Disney Princess hands create fairly pathetic downforce on many fretted notes while playing compared to even a very modest break angle at the nut.

But indeed doing as one sees fit and finding that it works for you is the highest ideal. This is an aesthetic pursuit for the most part.

Chris

[vinnyv1k]

We all know TI's are brass plated and not gold.....well gold in color. If you love them that is super great for you and if you don't you shell out a couple more bucks. When you play a good Archtop I don't think a extra $2.00 or so is going to upset you very much. You can't even get a good cup of coffee for that anymore.

I think the brass strings would be more appropriate on the Bebops but on the Swing flats no. I use flats only and always amplify but for the acoustic player the brass strings are most likely a great thing for there type of sound.

[neatomic]

you'd have to have bat ear radar to hear the difference between brass and tin super thin plating!..its done for corrosion reasons not tone

you're getting into major minutia here..in a blindfold test, i'd doubt 1 in 1000000 could consistently distinguish between the two

think of it this way..if you are using a 12 high E...11.9 is the carbon steel..the .1 is the plating!!

cheers

[vinnyv1k]

I don't like the feel of brass. It gets a sticky feel for me real fast. I also only use flats because I cannot tolerate finger squeak. Nails on a black board for me. If you love brass God bless you.

I must have bat hearing as I can hear the difference between a Elixir and a brass TI. Seriously I can. God has blessed me with great hearing which I must thank him for.

[rio]

Regarding the 10th fret buzzing not being related to relief, it absolutely does if there action is low enough. The fretwork has to be perfect and the neck totally straight to get the action as low as it can go, although that's not to say that it will not go low with relief in the neck.

Joe, how low are you talking when you say you like low action? I have always used picks to space out my action but just finally started measuring properly since I got some tools not too long ago. I have found a very thin line between enjoyable low action and potential buzzes when having a straight neck. I started taking guitars to a very good tech and will have them back in a couple of days (your old red 175 was one of them) and I am curious what the measurable difference in action will be between my own hack job fret work vs his and hopefullly I can help with exact measurements after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[neatomic]

would never question anyone elses sensory capabilities...one of the things that makes us all unique... string feel, look, sound- all individually essential components of tone

but as far as "spec"ific tech---which is really what i'm trying to convey here---a 13 high E would be 99.8% carbon steel strand with tiny tin or brass plate coating....

elixir- add gore-tex coating over tin..otherwise same string!

and yes, i would agree a "conventional-industry standard" tin plated carbon/swedish/stainless steel unwound string might sound different than the same exact string coated with a plastic ie. goretex- (george costanzas jacket)

which you prefer is of course up to you! no judgements, other than i know what i like..and always try to figure out why!!! haha

cheers

[neatomic]

ok..

if i have 10th fret buzzing

i check/adjust neck relief and bridge height/action...if still, change string (you should always have extras around anyway)...if still, check for high 11th fret (credit card method works fine), if still, check bridge saddle slot depth...either, or all often the solution

your (once living tree/wood) guitar is constantly changing...to keep it at its best, requires consistent informed attention...yours or your luthiers...other than that, it's just a pleasant hobby


cheers

[ptchristopher3]

Regarding the 10th fret buzzing not being related to relief, it absolutely does if there action is low enough.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I understand, but you are then talking about relief between the 10th fret and the neck joint. Moreover, the heel tapers into the neck above the heel.

For all practical purposes on a 14th fret joined neck, relief at the 10th fret would be a bow in a neck between the 10th fret and the 11th fret. Past the 11th fret the neck heel taper can be quite significant thus stopping all practical movement of the neck with changes in truss rod and string tension.

I completely understand that we all have differing and rich views.

But sometimes it can be hard to understand the actual possible mechanics at work that could give one some views.

If a player has a buzz at the 10th fret it is mechanically difficult to fathom any practical effect the truss rod would have. It is most likely time to diagnose some individual minor fret troubles and take care of them.

In my opinion.

But go look at your guitar and picture a "bow" in the neck from the 10th fret to the neck heel taper.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

Upper fret buzzes are most often a matter of a high fret, a low fret, or a neck joint artifact such as the proverbial "neck hump" sometimes seen in the area where a neck extension is mounted above the dovetail.

High frets are very carefully filed.

Low frets can be replaced or very carefully lifted (there are very small distances involved here) and CA added under the lifted fret. I have a ground blade that I made decades ago for these rare but very useful micro lifts to a fret, often under a single string.

The dreaded neck humps are another matter. Very mild ones can be handled in the frets, others are best handled with the removal of frets in the hump area (usualy to the end of the FB also) then some FB leveling and partial re-fret.

In my opinion.