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The amp arrived with an issue, ( most likely simply a defective power tube), so it makes it hard to evaluate. The builder has been very responsive and helpful, and as soon as it's resolved and I get to know it better I will report.
Originally Posted by Elamberth
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01-09-2016 08:24 PM
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Rick Hayes is good. I really hope it works out for you. Please let us know. I bought a Classic 15 (art-deco cherry wood cabinet) with a 10" speaker installed, directly from Vintage Sounds. Really sweet.
But I have to say, my 67 Princeton reverb with a Weber P10Q sound better than anything else to my humble ears.
And for the record, I also own a 76 DR, that I hardly ever use, but don't want to part with. Sometimes it's nice to hear a 12" speaker for a change.
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Reviving this thread to ask a question.
There are 2 types of Princeton re issues. The 65 and the 68. They are very different.
The main difference being that the 68 has the Bassman tone stack and the 65 does not.
I much prefer the sound of the Bassman tone stack. (even though the 68 is MIM with inferior construction)
My question: I need a little more volume than the Princeton delivers. In the 68 Fender Deluxe Reverb Custom the first channel is the Bassman tone stack.
I assume then that this is basically the same amp but with more power and a 12" speaker (and another channel).
So it "should" sound very similar to a 68 PRR MIM but ..... louder.
Correct?
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I would not assume that MIM means inferior construction, FWIW. The electronics industry in northern Mexico has been in operation for over 30 years now and the assembly plants utilize accurate labor (mostly female, as Leo Fender did in the pre-CBS Fender Factory in Fullerton, CA in the 50s and 60s).
You accurately point out that on one channel (two) the '68DRRI utilizes a channel that is designed to mimic the '59 Bassman circuit, but with both reverb and tremelo (which Fender always calls vibrato). You will get the old DR circuit on channel one.
I wouldn't hesitate to check out the '68, myself. However, if you want a more-or-less accurate recreation of the DR amp, get yourself a DRRI '65 amp. It won't sound exactly like a '65 DR amp for a variety of reasons. Mostly, it's due to the fact that the rectifier tube is vastly different than the NOS tube that would likely be found in an old DR, and the reissue speaker is different from an old Oxford or Jensen. That said, the RI amp is actually quite good. I build handwired amps. A lot of money changes hands because people believe that the handwired amps sound vastly superior to the circuit board amps. Hmm? I don't find that there is _that_ much difference between a DR with a circuit board and one with hand wiring--everything else being the same. (HERESY!) I would rather own the hand-wired amp, but I don't hear that much difference between the two.
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Thanks for the response Greenstone. I only say inferior build in regard to the valves being mounted on the circuit board.....but that's just something I heard. Originally Posted by Greentone
I'm not too concerned about that as the amp won't be travelling at all.
What I AM concerned about is having the Bassman Tone stack.
I actually have a 65 DRRI and don't like it much for the sound I am going after. It's a beautiful amp but not the sound I'm after.
I guess I am asking is the 68 PRRI the same circuit as the 68 DRRI given that they both have the Bassman tone stack.
I have now heard 2 examples of the Bassman tone stack and it's a great sound to my ears and quite different from the 65 of either model.
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Don't know the first thing about the RI amps, but iirc, with the originals, there is a difference between PR and DR circuits. Maybe different phase inverter? Originally Posted by Philco
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The originals have a flux capacitor. True fact.
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Wenger,
Did you get your amp back? How does it sound?
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Yes I did get the amp back in a timely fashion, and all is now well. It had a defective power tube socket. Originally Posted by Elamberth
In my experience, Rick Hayes is excellent to work with. Great communication and lightning fast turnaround. I would definitely not hesitate to buy Rick's products again.
My original intention was to try and obtain a modest size amp that could do double duty with my fender style solid bodies, and my archtops (ES-165 and Eastman Pisano).
Intrigued by BF fender repros, I contacted Mr. Hayes and inquired as to what model he would suggest for this application. He suggested the Vintage 22 (deluxe style), and told me he could voice the first channel to be more appropriate with archtops, and leave the second channel for the solid bodies. This seemed a great idea. In the end I did not do it, as I came to understand that I really did not want the deluxe circuit. I favor the princeton circuit, so I discussed it here and elsewhere, and bought the Vintage Sound Vintage 20. (Princeton w 12", bigger trans, etc.).
So, after some time living with it I can say that it's imo a really great sounding amp - but it does not cover all the intended bases well like I had hoped. It's not what I am looking for in terms of an archtop amp. It's not close enough to negate my need for a jazz amp.
Now in fairness I must say that I have learned a bit about what it is that I want, and I now realize that the prospect of finding one amp that satisfies in both regards is unrealistic.
This amp is very good imo with my G&L Legacy, and really excellent with my G&L Asat.
Just beautiful with the Asat. The reverb is great, the trem is decent, and the amp is really good with these single coils.
However, what I perceive as a sort of pear shaped freq response, while great for fenders, also imo works against what I wish to obtain with arches.
It's too thick and can be tubby. It's ok to find a sound and say, blow thru West Cost Blues or some single note stuff, but for fingerstyle playing it's not what I need. I know that a million fender BF amps have been used by the greats for fingerstyle and everything else, but it's just not what I was hoping for. With my carved Eastman, I feel that it again it's to bass heavy, and the articulation is not there. Possibly a tube swap would help in this regard. It does get some hair at a pretty low volume.
So it begs the question - Should I have listened to Rick's advice and got the Deluxe style with the custom jazz voiced channel one? I would have to say no. I don't suspect that a revoice will get me close enough to be happy with carved tops. I know now that I need solid state to be where I want to be with carved tops.
I could have sent it back, but I did not. Because it's a brilliant Princeton on steroids, with some great mods, like the middle tone control which I love, and I will always have use for that. This amp and my Asat is now my go to setup at home. I am pretty particular about this stuff, probably to a fault, but I was trying to turn a screw with a hammer, so I will enjoy and appreciate this fine amplifier with the guitars that speak to me thru it, and continue to try and find something that works as well for my archtops.Last edited by wengr; 03-08-2016 at 02:45 PM.
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I think i want to get a smaller fender amp for gigs, i bought a blues junior some time ago to try, but i am kind of underwhelmed with it. Perhaps the mod way would help, but i have a Twin reverb, had a great blues deluxe for ever, and the blues junior doesn't seem to match their level to my ears.
So i am between the Deluxe Reverb and the Princeton Reverb. I 've played a bunch of DRs and kinda of know what to look for on these, but i 'm not sure on all the PR variations out there. I 'll probably buy used, and i see a few different versions over the years, so how do they measure up? Anything specific to look for? I am a big fan of the fender amp sound (all of them), and would like to start using them in gigs again (after i bought an alessandro which is 15 kilos for 40 watts of tubes and a 12inch speaker it was game over for the big fenders).
Thanks!
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I have been reading about this as well. It depends on your budget and how authentic (although there are a couple of Different Princetons, most of them carry the AA1164 circuit) you want the sound to be. The Princeton Reverb's AA1164 circuit is differentiated from the other Blackface amps (Twin, Deluxe Reverb etc) with its phase inverter. Supposed to have a "sweeter" clean sound but less smooth distortion (according to the internet lore consensus computed by me).
The cheapest options are model/EQ your Alessandro front end (does it have a direct in to the power amp?) and take advantage of its power and large speaker and lightness: BarbEQ pedal, Wampler Black'65, modeling etc.
THe most expensive and luxurious option is buying a clone from David Allen (Sweet Spot) or Louis Amps (Columbia) or Vintage Sound (Vintage 15 or Vintage 20). There are a few other clones (Headstrong, Milkman etc) out there.
There are also amp techs who can build the circuit modded to your desire.
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FWIW, I think the Princeton Reverb is a bit better than the Deluxe Reverb for archtop work. I like the response of the 10" speaker with the archtop guitar. For use with a Fender single-coil guitar I slightly prefer the Deluxe Reverb.
My favorite, currently, is the silverface from the late-70s or early-80s. These can be had for a price that is not outrageous. They last and last. They will always be worth more than the reissue amps will--they are _real_ point-to-point Fenders. If you don't pull the boost volume, you get a Princeton sound.
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I loved a Princeton that I built but only after a 12", a heftier OT transformer and 6L6s. I don't like the Blues Jr and don't like EL84s generally speaking, bit especially not for jazz. But that's my own taste.
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My first amp was a 65 Princeton. I stupidly sold it because I thought I needed more power and didn't realize that owning multiple amps at multiple power levels is the way to go. This was about 28 yrs ago
When the PRRI came out I jumped on it. Sounds like my old Princeton to me! I have experimented quite widely with speakers and now have a Jensen Alnico p10r in it and I really like it. I have been recommended the Jensen p10q, but I think I'm going to stick with what I have for awhile.
I had the power tube sockets replaced with some tighter tolerance ones as the original sockets held the tubes a bit loosely and would cause noise. Otherwise the amp has never failed and worked flawlessly for years. It's my main gigging/recording amp.
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The trouble with the PRRI is that many get modified and by the time one is done with modding it (larger OT, 12" speakers, stiffer power supply, etc.) it is no longer a PRRI.
I am a little more open to using a Class D amp with a BF tube pedal into a speaker cab. The $199 VOX MV50 Clean is quite a blast. Check it out.
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Hmm... what's the trouble there? Many guitarists use different strings too. A Class D amp with a BF is not a Princeton either! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Although I don't doubt that it would not sound good. (I mean I am sure it sounds good, just started to wonder how the word 'to doubt' is used or understood. In Finnish its counterpart can be used in both positive AND negative meaning.)Last edited by Herbie; 05-18-2017 at 09:31 AM.
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Depending on your budget, and based on your post, I'd recommend checking out Silverface Princeton Reverbs. Go for the cleanest one you can find, and hopefully one that has already been serviced. If it needs any tuning up, any competent amp tech should be able to work on them.
They can be had all day for around $1,500 or less. And as already stated, will hold their value....and sound fantastic for jazz!!
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On the subject I think, does anybody like these PRRI w/12" speaker? I have been for no particular reason looking at PRRI, DRRI and the 65 TRRI.
Fender '65 Princeton Reverb 15-watt 1x12" Tube Combo Amp - Lacquered Tweed | Sweetwater
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I have one. I love it. The speaker is beautiful. I learned of it through this forum actually, a user Wildkat (?) was asking about the model. Originally Posted by 392Hemi
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I have a 71 silverface Princeton Reverb and I am absolutely in love with it.
Perfectly loud enough for most "human" volume levels. Mic it through a PA if needed.
I take good care of it and I'll never part with it.
Original Fender PRs can be found reasonably priced compared to some of the boutique clones out there although I'm sure those can be great too; but a PR will hold it's value should you ever need to sell it. I say "need" to sell it because you probably won't ever want to.
Good luck with your amp search!
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In my experience, that is 100% correct. GREAT cleans, shite for dirt. Originally Posted by medblues
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Gotta agree with Ruger9. Then, again, I NEVER used a Princeton Reverb for a distorted sound. It's a sublime small amp for a clean, Fender sound.
You want a terrific small amp for dirt? I'd recommend either a 5f1 Fender Champ or a 5e3 Fender Deluxe. Those two amps just kill when it comes to getting an overdrive sound. Joe Walsh's "Funk 49" (James Gang) is just a Telecaster into a 5f1 Champ. No effects/no drive pedal. Neil Young's distortion is almost always just his Les Paul into a 5e3 Deluxe with the volume _up_.
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I don't like 95% of the modern Fender amps including RI DRs and RI PRs... I would never buy one of those. There are many better and cheaper options. The vintage ones are outstanding and if you buy a vintage DR or PR you will never regret it.
The DR is more open and sparkly while the PR is more focused and fat. Both are great.
I personally prefer BFs over SFs but it all depends on your taste. BFs are warmer and tend to break up sooner. SFs have way more headroom but are not so warm.
If you want to spend less then I would definitely look somewhere else. Not a Fender RI (unless it is a '57 Tweed Twin, those are great but VERY heavy). How much headroom do you need? What kind of music do you play?Last edited by Rufes; 05-18-2017 at 10:34 PM.
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Princeton Reverbs are my favorite Fender amps. I currently own a 1970 and have owned a PRRI, which was very good. I think the sound is much warmer that a Deluxe Reverb and the bias vary tremolo is infinitely better in my opinion that the optical tremolo found in the Deluxe and the Twin.
It's funny about Fender amp threads, no matter which amp the thread is about, people will start talking about modding them. The Princeton Reverb is great stock. I prefer a speaker with a bigger magnet, my favorite is a vintage Jensen C10N, which I also used in my PRRI to great effect. However, a lot of people make the stock speaker work. I prefer the 10" speaker in that amp to a 12.
I think the cranked sound on a Princeton is great. Jim Campilongo plays his dimed. However, I'm a clean player. One cool trick to fatten up the sound is to crank the amp and turn down the guitar's volume. That works great with a single coil pickup, but with my 175, I prefer to get clean the traditional way.
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Yes, he also plays with the bass on 10. Do you? lol Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
Jim's PRs are indeed cranked... but his guitar vol knob is WAY back most of the time. That's his "clean" sound... and it's pristine. He only opens the guitar up for dirt occasionally.
Also... Jim uses either vintage reconed JensenC10Ns or new Celestion Vintage 10s... both ALOT less spikey and better for dirt than the C10R that comes in the PRRIs. He also biases his amps VERY hot- at least 30. Most techs would advise against such a thing- short tube life- but glorious sound!
Big difference between a PR biased at 19 (from the factory) with a C10R and one biased at 30 with a Celestion. BIG.
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