"Turn you amp up - it will sound better" - Fender Princeton test

**jzjazz** · 05-02-2017, 07:14 AM

So I've changed the speaker in my princeton to a Eminence Lil Bud - very happy with this replacement. I like it more than both Jensens and there is not really a going back - black amp is sold, Jensen P10R from white amp is also sold

I want to prepare another video for you with 3 amps - Princeton with Lil Bud, Henriksen as previously and Mambo Amp (which I recorded today). Not sure though which Princeton setting to use - I've recorded two and they are quite different. Which one do you like more?

I don't want to include three princeton speakers and one with different setting in a comparision - this would be too much to compare, so let's choose one of these two and I'll prepare a shootout between it and the transistor heros

**PB+J** · 05-02-2017, 08:05 AM

The only difference I could hear is slightly less highs when the amp is on seven, which makes sense as rolling the volume down bleeds off some treble even when you have a "treble bleed" network installed. Some might hear that as a fatter sound. I slightly preferred the amp on 4

**Alder Statesman** · 05-02-2017, 08:58 AM

I use alightly different approach for playing at home. Volume on amp set seven or higher, but with a volume pedal in the fx loop at about 25% and the Tele between 8 and max.

Sounds good to me and better than the amp at 3, which would produce the same db's.

**Ray175** · 05-02-2017, 09:16 AM

After quite about 7 years I've changed the orginal tubes on my Princeton Recording, replacing them with Genelex Golden Lion tubes.

Until now I've generally played with the guitar and amp volumes around 7 and have reduced the post pre-amp signal substantially (80%) using the power attenuator to stay at manageable overall volume levels.

To get the same sound, I'm now reducing the volume on the guitar to about 4 or 5, the amp to 6, and also reduced the amount of power attenuation (to around 50%).

Guitar output and amp volume levels certainly play a key role in the sound, but the pre-amp and power tubes are just as important (and so to some extent is the tube on the reverb circuit)

This is the first time I've changed all my tubes after a lot of listening to different videos, and it was a great learning experience.

**omphalopsychos** · 05-02-2017, 09:26 AM

I've got one of these amps with a Weber 10a150. It sounds great at 4. It sounds incredible at 7. The only problem I have with turning the amp up and the guitar down is that the amp starts to make more noise at higher volumes. But I prefer 7 over 4 in your example. Depending on the style I feel like playing, I sometimes record with the amp at 6 - 7 with an attenuator (weber minimass 25w) and my guitar volume around 75 - 80%. I think the Princeton reissue produces a really cool modern overdrive when pushed.

**Runepune** · 05-02-2017, 10:09 AM

What affects tone here is mostly the attenuated pickup output. Turning down volume on the guitar will lower the pickup's resonant peak and soften the sound. If you prefer that sound, and don't enjoy the added noise by raising the amp volume, you may add a clean preamp stomp in between to compensate for the volume loss

**Thumpalumpacus** · 05-02-2017, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Alder Statesman

I use alightly different approach for playing at home. Volume on amp set seven or higher, but with a volume pedal in the fx loop at about 25% and the Tele between 8 and max.

Sounds good to me and better than the amp at 3, which would produce the same db's.

This is how I do it as well, more or less. I run my amp wide open, and ride the volume from the guitar. The sound seems to have more body to it.

**jzjazz** · 05-02-2017, 01:51 PM

Thanks guys. I also hear that the amp-up version has a bit less high end - this is because of the guitar being turned down pretty heavily. The Aria is probably the guitar which looses most of the high end when turning down the volume knob of all guitars I had - maybe because it's the oldest guitar I've had and newer guitars compensate that somehow? E.g. I have two Eastmans and didn't notice it too much.

Nevertheless in the recording it looses less than I though it would - maybe because the amp opens up a bit and compensates some of the treble loss? I also believe that the speaker would sound different if we would turn it REALLY up - I mean the amp and the guitar and then lower the volume in the recording. Unfortunately can't do at home :-)

Personally I like the amp-up version a bit more, regardless of the hiss, seems a bit fatter to me. And more dynamic? Don't know, the difference is pretty subtle to me. I like both

**gggomez** · 05-03-2017, 07:37 AM

Agree in recording slight difference, did like 7 just a bit more expressive.

My 175 does not lose much treble when I role off the volume, different wiring pickups maybe impact how such a strategy ends up.

I like the Lil Bud. I have a Legend which I find a bit nasily. Have been thinking of going back to a copperhead.

Would love to hear a Princeton side by side with a DV Jazz12 and a Quilter Aviator.

Thanks for the comparisons.

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**sgcim** · 05-03-2017, 03:54 PM

This is all moot when you're playing a gig with other musicians.
Your great sound that you have when you're alone, gets destroyed by the drummer, the bass, the room, the carpet, etc...

**wzpgsr** · 05-03-2017, 04:36 PM

The version with amp volume on 7 sounded more compressed in the low mids, yet had a nice glassy quality overall. Still, I'd probably go with amp on 4 and roll back guitar volume and tone just a hair to cut some of the brightness. Splitting hairs, though, both sounded good.

With my tube amps (tweed Princeton and Ampeg Gemini II), I like to push the amp well into overdrive then pull back the guitar volume to taste. It gets a much fatter sound.

**mambosun** · 05-03-2017, 05:50 PM

I like both settings:
At seven, slighly more full bodied
At 4, a bit clearer.
What I found a bit lacking in this demo is some chords played to hear how they sound at each output level.
And yes I still love how my Superchamp XD + Li'l Buddy sound.

**whiskey02** · 05-05-2017, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Runepune

What affects tone here is mostly the attenuated pickup output. Turning down volume on the guitar will lower the pickup's resonant peak and soften the sound. If you prefer that sound, and don't enjoy the added noise by raising the amp volume, you may add a clean preamp stomp in between to compensate for the volume loss

That's pretty much what I do, though not always with a clean boost. You can turn your amp up without even plugging in and you'll hear the spot where the ground noise level becomes unacceptable, then turn the amp down a little. I do this on both SS and tube.

**viccortes285** · 05-05-2017, 09:49 PM

Most tube amps have a sweet spot, on my DRRI 68 between 4-5 is my sweet spot. On my Mesa Boogie it is 6 1/2.

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**docbop** · 05-07-2017, 05:03 PM

All amps have a few spots to work with, first is enough volume to make the circuit come alive and full tone SS and tubes both have that. Then the speaker's wake up point being driven hard enough to get its sound. NExt you're looking for the sweet spot of the sound you're looking for that is personal preference for amount of bite, dirt or maybe clean but full percussive rhythm. Then your solo sound amp is fully awake, sound is fat, and enough dirt for you taste buds. That's a lot for one amp to achieve so some resort to pedals to push, EQ, add dirty. Some go to dual amps. Key is working with a amp long enough to know how to dial in all those sounds at a workable volume range.

For me guitar side is pretty simple full up in general is the best to send to the amp a full define note. For me they should call the tone control the dullness control the notes don't get fuller they get less defined, dull. Volume control kind I would call the sensitivity control as you turn it down the pick isn't hearing all the subtitles of the vibrating string. Want to hear the difference play something, then turn down the volume control to get quieter. Now turn volume back up and pick the notes softer and closer to the neck to get quieter, but all the overtones and tone is still there.

So that how I look at it.

**Bobby Marshall** · 05-07-2017, 07:09 PM

If you dial in your amp with the guitar tone control turned down, it gives you a place to go up.

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**beetle_rist** · 06-28-2017, 08:43 PM

Also say if you're playing in a big band for instance, It's not not very efficient having the guitar volume all the way up in terms of the sound and matching the dynamics of the band, having your guitar volume low and amp volume high has a larger sound which i prefer especially playing jazz.

**boatheelmusic** · 07-02-2017, 06:00 AM

With the guitar turned down, there is less signal to amplify, and by turning the amp up you're also amplifying noise. Think signal/noise ratio.

Within limits, ok to play with mixing thinks up, but imo you sure wouldn't want to record with guitar volume turned way down........

**KirkP** · 07-02-2017, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

With the guitar turned down, there is less signal to amplify, and by turning the amp up you're also amplifying noise. Think signal/noise ratio.

Within limits, ok to play with mixing thinks up, but imo you sure wouldn't want to record with guitar volume turned way down........

With the amp turned up and guitar turned down by an equal amount, you are amplifying only the noise that entered the signal chain after the guitar's volume pot and before the amp's volume pot. For electric guitar, most noise is introduced in the pickup, so should come through at approximately the same level as before. That's ignoring the interaction between the impedances of the pickup and volume control, which affect frequency response so could make the S/N situation better or worse.

I used to keep the guitar at max volume assuming that would be better for S/N, but I like my tone better since I abandoned that idea.

**Max405** · 07-02-2017, 12:49 PM

Guys, while the idea of turning up the volume on the amp and controlling the overall volume in the guitar probably yields great results, I can tell you with 1,000% certainty, the 65 Reissue Fender Princeton Reverb that I have sounds better than any other amp I've ever used or owned. At low volume on the amp or high, it's perfection. No need to manipulate anything here. Just turn it on (my amp volume is usually 3) and 10 seconds later start playing. Pure jazz and chord melody nirvana.
I have 4 pieces right now that I will NEVER sell, my GJS, 165, Tal Farlow and my Fender Princeton Reverb. In fact, I am going to have a late lunch down in Princeton today at the Rocky Hill Inn and then we will drive over to the Tropical Smoothie Cafe because I love my Princeton. (And I love disco fries made with pork belly and vinigerette and TSC makes the best smoothies in the earth)..
Joe D

**Gitfiddler** · 07-03-2017, 03:35 PM

I tend to crank up my '68 Silverface Princeton (non-reverb) to 10, then turn down the guitar volume for best results. Since the non-reverb models tend to have a bit more headroom, and since I dropped an EV10 in mine, this technique works great.

Another variable is using input channel 2 for most humbucker instruments, and input 1 for single coils or P90's.

YMMV.

**KirkP** · 07-04-2017, 12:49 AM

I think the most important lesson from this discussion is to explore the range of volume and tone control settings on your rig. Don't automatically leave your guitar's volume control dimed or set the amp's tone controls flat based on a preconception that you're somehow getting a more pure tone of you guitar. If after trying all the possibilities you end up preferring the starting point that's fine.

**citizenk74** · 07-07-2017, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

I think the most important lesson from this discussion is to explore the range of volume and tone control settings on your rig. Don't automatically leave your guitar's volume control dimed or set the amp's tone controls flat based on a preconception that you're somehow getting a more pure tone of you guitar. If after trying all the possibilities you end up preferring the starting point that's fine.

Excellent point about ending up back where you started. If the process reinforces your earlier choices, that is in itself an affirmation. For instance with my ES-175, the tone controls invariably wind up in the 4-ish range with the selector on both pickups. It gives me the sound I hear in my head in the room. On stage, these may be tweaked to blend with the instrumentation at hand, but rarely by more that a notch or two. More often the individual volumes are adjusted or the amp itself. Ballpark is usually a good starting point. And when all else fails, you can always give the reverb a nudge.

**ruger9** · 05-29-2018, 08:52 PM

I can't answer the poll because they sound identical to me! I mean, if I put on headphones and listened HARD, maybe... but for all real-world uses, identical. Very interesting.

So, for me, for jazz tones, I'd default to guitar full up, just because it's simpler... I'm not "hunting" for the sweet spot on the guitar vol. Guitar full, amp 4.

And I think the Lil' Bud is a DEFINITE improvement over the usual suspects (P10R, Weber 10F150, Eminence Legend) for JAZZ tones. It really "browns" the amp! Like more brownface-y territory, or OLD amp territory.... hmm.... now you've really got me thinking..... I want another PR, but I wasn't considering the Lil' Bud at all...

**rpjazzguitar** · 05-31-2018, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

This is all moot when you're playing a gig with other musicians.
Your great sound that you have when you're alone, gets destroyed by the drummer, the bass, the room, the carpet, etc...

In the studio, maybe all of this is audible.

But, on a gig, I find this -- often, in the first set everything sounds terrible and in the second set, the exact same gear/settings sound fine. Why? Probably because I need to acclimate to whatever my rig sounds like in that particular room.

Also, in some rooms I never get a sound I like -- with the exact same gear/settings that sound good elsewhere.

So, with dramatic variations in how I perceive the exact same thing, it's hard for me to get excited by subtle differences (I'm not even sure I hear) depending on how I have the guitar and amp volume controls set.