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Interesting. While I don't doubt that WGS outsources some product lines to 3rd parties and Eminence may be one of the providers (there is also MISCO and others). It's also not really anything new. Jensen produced Magnavox, Motorola and other branded speakers for the home electronics market in the 1950s and 1960s. And for speakers from around 1962 or earlier, they are virtually identical to their higher priced Jensen counterparts used in guitar amps other than cosmetics.
In the case of WGS, Weber and others though, I do think there is more to it than just rebranding Eminence (or some other 3rd party) product.
Speaker technology is relatively static. Even with advancements in materials here and there the underlying principles are the same and well-travelled. It’s really not worth the investment, maintaining the infrastructure and retaining highly skilled employees to tackle the engineering, R&D etc. for a very mature product in a very mature industry (musical instruments).
That said, there is value add in having the expertise to spec', source and combine various component parts as it results in speakers with different characteristics. I think that's where companies like WGS, Weber and Eminence with their branded products play. Who and where the products/components are actually made/assembled is much less important in my opinion - at least as it relates to the end product.Last edited by hanktx; 08-06-2015 at 03:36 PM. Reason: additional thoughts
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08-06-2015 02:55 PM
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A lot of folks think putting a 50 watt speaker in a 60 watt amp will surely blow the speaker. I suspect that's only true if you tend to push the amp or turn the bass knob pretty high. If you're using a 60 watt amp because you want a lot of clean headroom, not because you want to play extremely loud you're probably ok. On the other hand, if you push the amp hard, it might deliver more than 60 watts, so there you'd want a high-power speaker.
Originally Posted by docdosco
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KIRKP,
I am sure the C. Rex would be Ok and I wouldn't blow it, but at 50 watts, I would be pushing the volume when I played certain loud gigs (outside gigs usually), and that would put it in the speaker distortion realm. I want loud and clean. So I figure a speaker handling more watts will let me play it louder before it breaks up. In theory this should be the case, but the way speakers are rated (size of the magnet, design, marketing BS etc) might not be so forgiving. Shouldn't I get more volume and cleaner tones at higher volume on certain 'clean design' speakers rated 75 or 90 watts than on a 50 watt in a 60 watt tube amp?
One would think so.
Thanks,
Doc Dosco
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That makes sense. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether speaker companies provide power ratings based on the point where they audibly distort vs. the point where they are at risk of blowing due to heat or excursion.
Last edited by KirkP; 08-08-2015 at 11:27 PM.
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hank,
You are right, of course. Especially on companies that mimic 'vintage' designed speakers. If WGS or Weber or whoever can assemble and market a speaker with Eminence/Celestion/Jensen parts (or any quality 3rd party parts) for a third less than said companies, ..... well, that is good for everyone.
However, I'm sure most of these newer speaker companies have bright enough tech folks that can do design changes to make a more appealing, efficient, cost effective speaker in many cases.
I have really learned a lot about speakers lately. I would love to be able to try about a dozen different models about now. At some point I'll have to take the plunge and buy a couple....
Doc Dosco
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The speaker companies wouldn't care so much about what level these speaker distort at, I would postulate. Only where the power surges that are high enough in wattage to cause a 'questionably' over-rated speaker blow. If a speaker shreds apart at just moderate gain, the speaker is a pile of junk.
Problem is, what models have enough beef to handle heavier power input and still sound killer (and clean), and which models are wimpy and and puke out at loew volume....
Doc DoscoLast edited by docdosco; 08-09-2015 at 02:07 AM.
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To determine which speaker is louder look at the 'sensitivity' rating, IIRC 'sensitivity' is the number of decibels measured at 1 meter in front of the speaker with 1 watt power into the speaker. Guitar speakers typically range from 97 db to 101 db. Every 3 db is perceived as double the volume so a 101 db speaker should seem twice as loud as a 98 db speaker. Originally Posted by docdosco
Some speakers have speaker breakup well before you max out the power, depends on the design. Some are designed not to breakup when used within their power rating. Some of the vintage style Webers are designed for very early breakup while EV12L's are designed to be loud and clear.
Have you contacted Eminence for advise? I have found their customer support is outstanding.Last edited by MaxTwang; 08-09-2015 at 03:39 PM.
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I should do that. I posted some questions to the WGS forum. I got a canned reply: Try the G12c/s or the ER 65/90 and not much else for info except they claim their 50 or 75 watts is a real 50/75 for tube watts. So, I made a much more detailed inquiry in a follow up. What about the level at break up? How loud and clean can I expect? yada yada
Nothing yet in response.
DocLast edited by docdosco; 08-09-2015 at 01:36 PM.
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I have a Mission Amps Tweed Deluxe with a Celestion Alnico Blue. The amp is great, but I was never really happy with the tone with my L5: it sounded somehow plinky, or I had to move the tone control down so that the sound became a bit muffled. The Alnico Blue was supposed to be a very good match for the Tweed Deluxe, so I never really thought of changing it; I was instead considering a parametric equalizer to alter the overall response.
However, yesterday I swapped the Alnico Blue for a used Eminence Cannabis Rex: I read that the hemp cone should have given warmer highs and less breakup, thus improving the amp for the "traditional" jazz tone I wanted.
And it worked incredibly well: the sound is now warm, almost creamy on solo notes, there is no breakup or howling, just great clean tone, a sort of archetypal archtop jazz tone, at least to my ears.
I really didn't expect the speaker making such a huge difference; it doesn't hurt that the new speaker is considerably cheaper the old one, which is now for sale. I am sure that for different genres the Alnico Blue is a great speaker, but at least according to my ears and my possibly limited taste, it doesn't work well with archtops and jazz, where instead the Cannabis Rex seems to be just perfect.Last edited by rgiaccio; 04-17-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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All reviews I've read of the Cannabis Rex have been positive. I think it will be the next speaker I purchase when the time comes.
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Plinky is the right word to describe the quintessential Alnico Blue sound. Originally Posted by rgiaccio
I've had a Cannabis Rex myself in a Mustang III, but later I found my favorite tone: Celestion G12-65.
I personally would've never chosen an Alnico Blue for a Tweed; my first choice would've been a Jensen C12N.
HTH,
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My Fender FSR Princeton RI came with a 12" Cannabis Rex and I really love the sound of it.
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I've used several Crex speakers through the years. One for a long time in a '58 Gibson GA40. It's an interesting speaker. Sneaky loud, brighter than you'd expect from all the "smoky", "blanket over the amp" comments. I found it smooth rather than dull. And it went really well with tweed circuits.
But now I"m with LTKojak. Hearing the Celestion Heritage G12-65 that came stock in the EC Tremolux changed everything. Became my instant favorite ceramic speaker.
MD
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in all fairness, you replaced a 15 watt alnico blue with a 50 watt ferrite hemp cone...of course its gonna have less breakup!!
but when 50's tweed deluxes were born, 50 watt ferrite speakers didn't even exist!!
cheers
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It's not only the breakup, it's the tone which has smoother highs. On the L5 there are some notes that to me sound a bit like a xilophone (don't know how to better explain this), and with the new speaker these wood resonances are more evident in the amplified tone.
About ferrite magnets, I considered the Eminence Canis Major or the Tone Tubby Red Alnico as more orthodox choices for tweeds, but I had this nice Cannabis Rex hanging arond...
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A fine choice. I rock a l'il buddy in a Princeton and I'm pretty happy with it.
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I have the Cannabis Rex in my Mission Amps 5E3. A great combo for jazz!
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Eminence gives a lot of bang for the buck. You can get a top shelf USA made speaker for less than $100.
Great company and the Rex is excellent for jazz.
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I once put a Cannabis Rex (12 inch) in a Tweed Blues Jr (I know, I know) and it actually turned it into a usable amp...definitely not my first choice for jazz mind you, but usable none the less. It did tame the highs and made the amp much warmer.
I should have taken the Rex out when I traded the amp but I was feeling lazy that day. My loss....oh, well.
Great speaker.
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I recently acquired a 40W Blues Deluxe. Out of the box reviews are love it or hate it. Most of the hate it who stuck a CRex in it started liking it Originally Posted by LoungeRat
One of these speakers may find it's way into my amp someday. Way too early to say as the factory speaker hasn't broken in yet (and I'm (so far) happy with it as is).
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Actually, the Blues Deluxe is one of the few Hot Rod Series amps that sounds good to me out of the box (I also really dig the Blues Deville 410 but I would hate to have to carry it!). I can only image that adding a C-Rex would make it sound that much better. I sold my Blues Deluxe to a friend when I got my Katana so I didn't have a chance to try it. Maybe I can talk him into adding one and selling it back to me! Originally Posted by Brian B
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How early does the Princeton/Cannabis Rex combo break up compared to a Deluxe, for example? Originally Posted by docbop
I've always used a PRRI for Americana tones (medium break-up), and DRRI's for jazz (clean and glassy).
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If the Cannabis Rex is good enough for Julian Lage, it's good enough for me.
"Michael" is the creator/owner of Magic Amps, which Mr. Lage has been using exclusively for a year or two now.Last edited by ConsiderMeMilesDavis; 05-12-2019 at 03:32 PM.
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I have a C Rex in a first year of production Peavey Classic 30 that I'm pretty happy with.
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A couple of years ago I scored a Fender Silverface Musicmaster bass amp. It had the original Fender speaker and sounded...OK, even after the original owner had a few mods done to its tone stack.
(These amps sound like crap with a bass, but pretty darned good with a guitar, especially if tweaked a bit)
I had a new C.Rex intended for another project, but for kicks I put it in the Musicmaster amp and WOW! It sounds great! That speaker really woke up that amp.
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