Gibson Crimson shop closed

[Thumpalumpacus]

Some of the loss of dealers may be initiated by Guitar Center: 10+ years ago I lived in a town with only a few smaller guitar shops. When Guitar Center moved into town the local Gibson dealer lost their dealership, they told me GC's agreement with Gibson didn't allow other Gibson dealers in the area. The town went from having a high-end Gibson dealer to GC stocking only a few Gibsons and a lot of Epiphones.

GC's financial woes may help to explain HJ's decision to focus on online sales. Relying on Guitar Center to sell most of one's product is dangerous considering how leveraged they are.

That said, Gibson's biggest competition is the used-Gibson market, I think.

[m_d]

Perhaps prefacing this statement with "In theory," or "Conceptually," might make it more credible.


Yes, The answer is none. Can you provide any examples of instruments built in China or Korea that match the criteria you have described?

Maybe this will help sort myth from truth. Says Jon Herington:
"The first time I played an Eastman guitar was when I was subbing for Scott Kuney in the Broadway pit of Spamalot. He didn't want to leave his valuable L5 in the pit, and had bought an Eastman archtop to replace it there. I played it when it was brand-new, and right away it felt better and sounded better than the L5 to my ears. But the astonishing thing was that when I went back a couple of months later and played that same guitar, the difference in tone was incredible. In that short amount of time, with all the music happening in that space with eight shows a week, it had blossomed in an unbelievable way, and sounded huge. I was very impressed, obviously, and never forgot it. Years later, when I happened to be in touch with Eastman, I jumped at the chance to check out some of their instruments."
Jon Herington — Eastman Guitars

About that Grey Poupon mustard, I don't know where that name came from but if you know French it's very strange and not too appetizing, as it means "grey infant".

My problems with Gibson archtops are overpricing - I would be more ok with it if I knew a large part of that went to the artists that build them not board members ; QC issues and the management's apparent cynicism about them - I would never buy a Gibson online; brand identification does not work with me - the 50-60ies are long gone, more recent Gibson "guitar heroes" such as Slash leave me cold, and many of today's top players do not play Gibsons (Dechter, Grasso, Lange, Faenhle...). A Gibson would only make sense to me used.

[vinlander]

I don't think someone preferring the tone of an Eastman over his L5 means anything other than he prefers the Eastman kind of tone...nothing wrong with that actually.
Eastmans are closer to Benedetto kind of tone and Benedetto are also great guitars no contest, they both sounds nothing like a Gibson though...

[medblues]

Prime time for a "Which archtop is the Gibson?" blind test. Of course, according to the Gibson experts, although both are Gibsons, an ES-175 will sound "completely different" from an L-5 etc even when amplified. People have even claimed that a similarly specced Heritage that's built in a former Gibson workshop by former Gibson employees will sound different. Given the high degree of manufacturing variability and less than optimal quality control at Gibson, it is highly unlikely that even the most expert Gibson fans can differentiate an archtop based on only the Gibson brand name. Great example would be a superb sounding Heritage versus an inferior sounding Gibson or vice versa. The Gibson fan would choose the Heritage and the Heritage fan would choose the Gibson if blinded.

[Hammertone]

Maybe this will help sort myth from truth. Says Jon Herington:
(paraphrasing)"Eastman guitars are swell."

Eastman has done a fine job and makes excellent guitars, IMO.
As they evolve, they are focusing more on their versions of traditional American instruments - Les Pauls (their latest models), semis, laminated archtops and flattops, all of which are much easier to build than the acoustic archtop guitars with which they started. Because the market for carved archtop guitars is quite small, this is a smart business move, appealing to a much larger market.

They have proven over the years that they can build a fine carved archtop guitar that, while it doesn't feel or sound like a Gibson carved archtop, costs less than a Gibson carved archtop. Since their carved archtop guitars are not patterned after Gibson instruments, but are (as pointed out) based on Benedetto instruments, it makes sense that they would not feel or sound like Gibson instruments. In my personal experience, they tend to be quite bright and lack bass when compared to Gibson instruments.

[Naquat]

Doctor Jeff, you have a PM.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It won't sound like a gibson not even close. That might be ok but if it isn't.....

Virtuoso violinists cannot tell the difference between Strads and modern violins -- and that's an acoustic instrument with the soundhole perched immediately next to one's ear.

If you can do better than them with the addition of amp coloration as an obscuring factor, I'd be interested in learning how, and seeing/taking the test you took.

It's almost like a nitro vs poly discussion at this point -- bald claims bereft of support.

[pilotony]

Not knowing what the current relationship is between manufacturers and dealers with respect to wholesale and retail price, I offer the following about the "guitar boom" days of the 1960s.

I lived in Brooklyn, New York. There were a few local music stores who sold a full range of instruments--some also offered lessons. There were plenty of guitar teachers, some with freestanding locations others who taught from their homes.

From 1962 until 1967 (except for a 10 month break--more on that later), I worked at a local store/studio with two locations in Brooklyn, "Columbia Music Center." We sold and offered lessons on instruments that mirrored what was offered in the New York City school system, generally in Junior High Schools (grades 7 to 9) and High Schools. We also sold guitars and offered lessons. The brands we handled were: Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild, Fender, Goya, Harmony and other lesser priced instruments. We dealt directly with the factory on Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild and Fender, and purchased these instruments at the wholesale price which was usually 50% of the list price. We retailed these for 30 to 40% of the list price. Other brands we purchased through intermediaries we called "jobbers" some names that come to mind are "Bugliesen and Jacobsen" and "Silver and Horland" (both in New York City).

Gibson did not sell directly to many dealers. If I recall correctly, the only dealer in Brooklyn was Sam Ash, (where I worked for about 10 months), with the rest of the franchises in Manhattan, most on 48th Street off Times Square, which was considered the "music district".

Epiphone and Gibson were made in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. Some Epiphone thin lines were essentially identical to Gibson models, i.e., the Casino was the same as the ES-330, and another Epiphone (Sorrento?) was the same as the ES-335. The Epiphones were priced about $90 less than the comparable Gibsons. Since I worked for an authorized dealer, I bought a Casino, ES-230TDV, with case for about $200 bucks which was our cost. This was my first "good guitar".

Gibson guitars were not as deeply discounted, generally going for 25% to 30% off list price. They were considered the "holy grail". I was 14 years old in 1962 and played in a rock band--two guitars, bass guitar, keyboard/accordion and drums. We worked at Church dances, family parties and sweet 16s generally for $15 to $20 apiece. When we were old enough to play in bars (18) and get our "Cabaret Cards" which were issued by the City and were required before you could play in a place that sold liquor, we hit the "big time" and earned $40 or $50 a night apiece. I then bought my first Gibson--an ES-345TDC-SV in red--at Sam Ash for around $350 with case. I still have that guitar which I consider my favorite. I've also bought, sold and kept many guitars in the intervening years. As a side note, John D'Angelico was still making guitars in Manhattan. His "New Yorker" was about $500. Live and learn.

Where is this going. Well, in January, I hit the big "70". It's time for an L5, preferably new (compliments of my wife). When it comes to Guitars I'm a Gibson snob and always will be. I know, it doesn't make sense on several levels. But that's the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up on the Crimson Shop. I looked around online this morning and located many new L5s. I'll probably jump the gun this week and buy an early birthday present.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Anthony Darienzo

[jads57]

I think what many of us find sad is how a person/CEO has such little regard for what Gibson's great tradition of crafting fine guitars means to many people vs. their own business plan. Maybe that's just business, but at some point heart and passion are the the true reason, just as in anything of value!

[Hammertone]

The Chinese can make a Gibson or Martin or (whatever) to one hundred percent identical spec for way cheaper than either Gibson or Martin can. Arguably, they're a good bit better off since they're not CITES compliant, meaning they can get better woods, much, much cheaper without any regulatory barriers.

Yet they have not done so. I have yet to see a counterfeit Gibson from China that comes close enough to an equivalent Gibson to fool even a moderately-educated consumer.

Why do you think these brands are absolutely apoplectic about imported counterfeits that require microscopes and a panel of seven experts to discern from the real thing?

Please provide proof regarding these counterfeits. I am familiar with various excellent counterfeits that have come from the US, Canada, the UK and Europe, all of which are expensive instruments, some of which require expert analysis to be identified. I am unfamiliar with any Chinese counterfeits that meet the criteria you mention. My understanding is that companies like Gibson, Martin (and Rolex and others) concern themselves with the existence of counterfeits in order to protect their trademarks, which is a business decision and a requirement of trademark law.

As well, given that this discussion started regarding the Gibson Crimson shop, here's a useful video, that highlights the use of the Crimson moniker as it related to carved jazz guitars and custom orders:

[Stringswinger]

Not knowing what the current relationship is between manufacturers and dealers with respect to wholesale and retail price, I offer the following about the "guitar boom" days of the 1960s.

I lived in Brooklyn, New York. There were a few local music stores who sold a full range of instruments--some also offered lessons. There were plenty of guitar teachers, some with freestanding locations others who taught from their homes.

From 1962 until 1967 (except for a 10 month break--more on that later), I worked at a local store/studio with two locations in Brooklyn, "Columbia Music Center." We sold and offered lessons on instruments that mirrored what was offered in the New York City school system, generally in Junior High Schools (grades 7 to 9) and High Schools. We also sold guitars and offered lessons. The brands we handled were: Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild, Fender, Goya, Harmony and other lesser priced instruments. We dealt directly with the factory on Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild and Fender, and purchased these instruments at the wholesale price which was usually 50% of the list price. We retailed these for 30 to 40% of the list price. Other brands we purchased through intermediaries we called "jobbers" some names that come to mind are "Bugliesen and Jacobsen" and "Silver and Horland" (both in New York City).

Gibson did not sell directly to many dealers. If I recall correctly, the only dealer in Brooklyn was Sam Ash, (where I worked for about 10 months), with the rest of the franchises in Manhattan, most on 48th Street off Times Square, which was considered the "music district".

Epiphone and Gibson were made in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. Some Epiphone thin lines were essentially identical to Gibson models, i.e., the Casino was the same as the ES-330, and another Epiphone (Sorrento?) was the same as the ES-335. The Epiphones were priced about $90 less than the comparable Gibsons. Since I worked for an authorized dealer, I bought a Casino, ES-230TDV, with case for about $200 bucks which was our cost. This was my first "good guitar".

Gibson guitars were not as deeply discounted, generally going for 25% to 30% off list price. They were considered the "holy grail". I was 14 years old in 1962 and played in a rock band--two guitars, bass guitar, keyboard/accordion and drums. We worked at Church dances, family parties and sweet 16s generally for $15 to $20 apiece. When we were old enough to play in bars (18) and get our "Cabaret Cards" which were issued by the City and were required before you could play in a place that sold liquor, we hit the "big time" and earned $40 or $50 a night apiece. I then bought my first Gibson--an ES-345TDC-SV in red--at Sam Ash for around $350 with case. I still have that guitar which I consider my favorite. I've also bought, sold and kept many guitars in the intervening years. As a side note, John D'Angelico was still making guitars in Manhattan. His "New Yorker" was about $500. Live and learn.

Where is this going. Well, in January, I hit the big "70". It's time for an L5, preferably new (compliments of my wife). When it comes to Guitars I'm a Gibson snob and always will be. I know, it doesn't make sense on several levels. But that's the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up on the Crimson Shop. I looked around online this morning and located many new L5s. I'll probably jump the gun this week and buy an early birthday present.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Anthony Darienzo

Great post. Most of the opinionated posts on this thread bore me to tears, but your post made getting through them worth while. Nothing boring about it in the least. I hope you find a great L-5!

[Lobomov]

Virtuoso violinists cannot tell the difference between Strads and modern violins -- and that's an acoustic instrument with the soundhole perched immediately next to one's ear.

If you can do better than them with the addition of amp coloration as an obscuring factor, I'd be interested in learning how, and seeing/taking the test you took.

It's almost like a nitro vs poly discussion at this point -- bald claims bereft of support.

There is a lengthy interview with one of the participants in that test online. She explains that the test wasn't for them to pick out the old violins from the modern. Instead they where asked which violins they would prefer to gig.

So in guitar terms it means that they prefered to gig a modern custom shop tele that was newly set up instead of a 50s tele that hadn't had a set up. (They where not allowed to adjust the strads before the test). Not very surprising imo.

And even without considering the setup issues choosing a modern fender over a 50s one doesn't have to be surprising.

[ThatRhythmMan]

It's still just comparing individual guitars anyway. For my most recent example, I played two 1959 Reissue ES-175s made in the same year, both brand new, same strings, same set up, same amp with the same settings, played back to back and they sounded distinctly different.

One was a natural and one was a sunburst, but otherwise they were exactly the same specs. They undoubtedly had a different tonal character though.

[vinnyv1k]

I too think I will buy a new Gibson this week. Time to stock pile.

[Doctor Jeff]

Pilotony I really appreciated your post. Working in a guitar store would probably be my dream job, and in fact may be my future job once I retire, if there are still music stores around. :-/

When I could afford it with my summer job in college I got what was for me the Holy Grail of guitars, a Gibson ES-175.

JADS57 I've already provided my criticisms of Gibson above re' their dealership decisions, but on the flip side any CEO has a responsibility to keep the business going. Look what happened to Kay, Harmony and Epiphone among too many to mention.

Here's what happens when a manufacturer of great reputation loses its business edge:

The war changed everything. Before the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941, Epiphone was a consumer favorite and industry leader. By the end of the war in 1945, the company had lost its greatest asset when Epi died of leukemia. Epiphone shares and control went to younger brothers Orphie and Frixo.Problems emerged slowly at first. Epiphone continued to clash with Gibson, each introducing electric cutaway versions of their top archtops. Pickups continued to be refined and players continued to appear onstage with Epiphone guitars. From the outside, it seemed to be business as usual.But cracks soon appeared both on the production line and in the boardroom. The Stathopoulo brothers argued over the future of the company and in 1948, Frixo sold his shares to Orphie. The company's reputation for craftsmanship and innovation that Epi had built in the '20s and '30s did not survive the war years. Tastes were changing and Epiphone's products seemed traditional and out of step. The Epiphone factory moved from Manhattan to Philadelphia in 1953 to avoid a union clash but many of the company's craftsmen refused to leave New York.In the early '50s, Epiphone's former champion and favorite late night tinkerer Les Paul became a household name with a television show, a radio program, and chart-topping hits, all played with his name-brand Gibson Les Paul. Les had been perfecting his solid body guitar design in the Epiphone factory and when Fender emerged with their Telecaster, Gibson President Ted McCarty made Les Gibson's first solid body electric guitar endorser. As Epiphone's fortunes continued to decline, Les suggest McCarty reach out to Epiphone. McCarty took the advice and reached out to Orphie, expressing Gibson's interest in Epiphone's critically acclaimed upright bass division which Gibson had not picked up again after World War II. When Orphie replied in 1957, McCarty was offered the entire Epiphone company, including the remaining inventory of the Philadelphia factory, for $20,000. McCarty accepted on behalf of Gibson. The Stathopoulo family was out of the instrument business.

Now this could happen to Gibson too. Time will tell if their business decisions are bogus or brilliant...

[Greentone]

I am afraid that, to me, Gibson _is_ the custom shop. "Only a Gibson [Crimson Custom Shop] is Good Enough," anymore. Everything else is pretty much just CNC routed Les Pauls, as far as I can tell. Meh, not interested. The Custom Shop instruments, OTOH, are _still_ GIBSON. When the custom shop closes, Gibson closes, for my purposes.

It'd be like Five Guys saying, "we aren't gonna make any burgers or fries, but we'll still sell you a soda."

[Max405]

Happy early birthday Anthony.
Go get a nice L5. You deserve it buddy.
Joe D

Not knowing what the current relationship is between manufacturers and dealers with respect to wholesale and retail price, I offer the following about the "guitar boom" days of the 1960s.

I lived in Brooklyn, New York. There were a few local music stores who sold a full range of instruments--some also offered lessons. There were plenty of guitar teachers, some with freestanding locations others who taught from their homes.

From 1962 until 1967 (except for a 10 month break--more on that later), I worked at a local store/studio with two locations in Brooklyn, "Columbia Music Center." We sold and offered lessons on instruments that mirrored what was offered in the New York City school system, generally in Junior High Schools (grades 7 to 9) and High Schools. We also sold guitars and offered lessons. The brands we handled were: Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild, Fender, Goya, Harmony and other lesser priced instruments. We dealt directly with the factory on Epiphone, Gretsch, Guild and Fender, and purchased these instruments at the wholesale price which was usually 50% of the list price. We retailed these for 30 to 40% of the list price. Other brands we purchased through intermediaries we called "jobbers" some names that come to mind are "Bugliesen and Jacobsen" and "Silver and Horland" (both in New York City).

Gibson did not sell directly to many dealers. If I recall correctly, the only dealer in Brooklyn was Sam Ash, (where I worked for about 10 months), with the rest of the franchises in Manhattan, most on 48th Street off Times Square, which was considered the "music district".

Epiphone and Gibson were made in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. Some Epiphone thin lines were essentially identical to Gibson models, i.e., the Casino was the same as the ES-330, and another Epiphone (Sorrento?) was the same as the ES-335. The Epiphones were priced about $90 less than the comparable Gibsons. Since I worked for an authorized dealer, I bought a Casino, ES-230TDV, with case for about $200 bucks which was our cost. This was my first "good guitar".

Gibson guitars were not as deeply discounted, generally going for 25% to 30% off list price. They were considered the "holy grail". I was 14 years old in 1962 and played in a rock band--two guitars, bass guitar, keyboard/accordion and drums. We worked at Church dances, family parties and sweet 16s generally for $15 to $20 apiece. When we were old enough to play in bars (18) and get our "Cabaret Cards" which were issued by the City and were required before you could play in a place that sold liquor, we hit the "big time" and earned $40 or $50 a night apiece. I then bought my first Gibson--an ES-345TDC-SV in red--at Sam Ash for around $350 with case. I still have that guitar which I consider my favorite. I've also bought, sold and kept many guitars in the intervening years. As a side note, John D'Angelico was still making guitars in Manhattan. His "New Yorker" was about $500. Live and learn.

Where is this going. Well, in January, I hit the big "70". It's time for an L5, preferably new (compliments of my wife). When it comes to Guitars I'm a Gibson snob and always will be. I know, it doesn't make sense on several levels. But that's the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up on the Crimson Shop. I looked around online this morning and located many new L5s. I'll probably jump the gun this week and buy an early birthday present.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Anthony Darienzo

[Max405]

I too think I will buy a new Gibson this week. Time to stock pile.

"Time to stock pile"? Really? I nearly fell off my chair..
L,J

[vinnyv1k]

"Time to stock pile"? Really? I nearly fell off my chair..
L,J

Supply and demand. When there are no more Archtops in the stores my Crimson buds will be back doing what they do best.

Marc very sorry to bore with this Crimson posting. I will always love you brother.

[skiboyny]

Gibson sounds like Gibson. I don't think it's special skills or materials, it might even be quite the opposite. The other builders can build a guitar that sounds great, some might even think better but none sound like a Gibson. It's possible that your ear cannot discern different sounds closely. If it could you would whole heatedly agree that Gibson has a sound of it's own. You can argue the other merits of the other builders if you wish, and to that end you might have a great argument. But as far as sound goes Gibson sounds like Gibson and no others sound quite like it.

This is completely incorrect, but I'd like to hear you justify/rationalize your position.

What proprietary skills or materials does Gibson posses that cannot be duplicated in guitar building shops elsewhere?

The answer is absolutely none, but it's always amusing to hear the 'believers' try and make their case.

[Sam Sherry]

I was was shocked to hear today that only 10% of the Gibson Guitar Co. revenue comes from guitar sales. They make far more money on there other venues.

Vin, it's no reflection on you but I suspect somebody mis-heard or mis-ballparked something. Here's why -- Gibson owns:
. Gibson Guitars (Nashville, TN, Memphis, TN and Bozeman, MT)
. Epiphone Guitars including reported part or whole ownership of the Epiphone factory in Qingdao, China
. Baldwin Pianos (Trumann, AK and 2x in China)
. Cerwin-Vega Speakers (Chatsworth, CA)
. Stanton cartridges and DJ gear (Deerfield Beach, FL and probably China)
. Cakewalk Software (Boston, MA)
. TEAC / TASCAM audio gear (Tokyo, Japan and probably China)
. Onkyo audio gear (Osaka, Japan and probably China)
. KRK studio gear

For no reason at all, I guess that accurate versions of the statement could conceivably be:
a) "Gibson makes 10% of its profit from guitars" -- Who knows how that works
b) "Gibson makes 10% of its money from Gibson guitars" -- Gotta whole lotta Epis
c) "Gibson makes 10% of its guitar money from acoustic guitars" -- Again, who knows

Point being, whoever told you what they told you could easily be merely one or two words away from the fact. Or maybe your source is correct, and Gibson sell a ton of Onkyo stereos that we guitarists never notice.

As for Henry laying people off, it's a wonder that Gibson has supported three US guitar factories and a US piano factory for as long as it has. Anybody with a financial axe would look at that list and say, "Three guitar factories? Really?"

[Hammertone]

People bought grey poupon because of brilliant marketing and not because some famous mustard hero ate it.

It's the exact same thing.
Whether it's Grey Poupon validating one's sense of self-worth by selling them overpriced Dijon mustard via associating it with 'the elite' or (Insert Guitar Brand Here) validating one's sense of self-worth by associating it with a musician they admire, it's all marketing hokum. ...

Simple research made it clear that there was a market for Dijon-syle mustard in America. It tastes different from yellow mustard. Consumers like the way it tastes. It is a great product. What marketing did was provide a way for its manufacturer to sell it with higher margins. Eventually the product was widely accepted by Americans. Because it is very simple and easy to make, lower-cost alternatives that taste just as good, and are essentially the same thing, became available. Now American consumers have a choice between Grey Poupon and other, similar, products at a variety of price points.

The rules of marketing apply to guitars as well, but guitars are more complicated to make than mustard. Hyperbolic statements aside, high quality guitars are difficult to make. And high-quality carved archtop guitars are even more difficult to make. Yes, there is plenty of hokum in marketing and, yes, some branding is indeed a hoax, but the disciplines are themselves neither hokum nor hoax - consumer perceptions of a brand, and its success or failure, depend on the talent, skill, and behaviour of its stewards.

[Stringswinger]

Supply and demand. When there are no more Archtops in the stores my Crimson buds will be back doing what they do best.

Marc very sorry to bore with this Crimson posting. I will always love you brother.

Back at you Vinny. Nothing you wrote has bored me. I am glad you let us know the news. It seems that the Gibson bashers come out of the woodwork whenever there is an opportunity. And you know my position on that....

[Dennis D]

Where is this going. Well, in January, I hit the big "70". It's time for an L5, preferably new (compliments of my wife). When it comes to Guitars I'm a Gibson snob and always will be. I know, it doesn't make sense on several levels. But that's the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up on the Crimson Shop. I looked around online this morning and located many new L5s. I'll probably jump the gun this week and buy an early birthday present.

Hope I didn't bore you.

Anthony Darienzo

Anthony I hope you find one that is what you have expected and I am guessing you will !

The saddest part for me in reading this thread was how disrespectful of Gibson purchasers some of these posters became. People felt they had every right to trash Gibson ownership, prices and business practices, and then proceeded to ' have at ' anyone who'd even want or buy one at any price.

Again good luck Anthony and thank you for that story. Please keep us updated on your purchase.

Dennis

[Hammertone]

Scoop: I'm off to a gig right now, but I think this is a great discussion and I will respond later. I agree with many of your points and not so much with some others. More later….