Different pickup magnets/coil-windings sound different?

[add4]

The dissertation didn't compare different alnico magnets, but did make it clear that the strength of the magnetic field is one of the more important factors in a pickup's ability to create sound. Magnets of different alloys would presumably have different field strengths.

That seems almost obvious no? As a physicist I learned to look at extremes situations to understand how a system works.
One extremity : no magnetic field. Then you know you have no sound. You need a field for induction.
Other extremity: strong field. You get more induction... and more sound.

So yes it seems that it's a major effect thing. With a bobbin and movement in the magnetic field. That's the basic theory in fact.

The variations in sound are harder to explain.


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[newsense]

I'm surprised no posts above has yet mentioned resonant frequency - or if they did, I missed it.

Yes, the primary difference between types of magnets is field strength, which influences volume. But these differences can be balanced, or negated, by the number of turns in the coil or by changing pu height. However, the coils, tone circuit and volume pot form an LCR circuit, which has a frequency dependent impedance dominated by a resonant frequency. This influences both the tone and dynamic response of the circuit. As the magnet type influences the self inductance of the coil (the L in LCR), they also influence tone and dynamics. Hence I'm tempted to believe that pu builders select different magnets, not for volume, but for tone and dynamics. Most pu manufacturers provide not only resistance data, but resonant frequency data for their wares, suggesting this is important.

In case I made it sound over-simple, the sound an experienced builder is looking for will drive him to experiment with different magnets, wire gauge, number and consistency of windings, etc. He is probably not wrangling the impedance equations, but has a hard-earned empirical knowledge of how each factor is likely to influence the end result.

[cosmic gumbo]

[jazzbow]

Meggy, never listen to bass players, they only use one finger at a time.

Bass players are only in bands to move the heavy stuff and roll cigarettes while the musicians work on the complexities of music.

Lol

[LtKojak]

Meggy, never listen to bass players, they only use one finger at a time.

Bass players are only in bands to move the heavy stuff and roll cigarettes while the musicians work on the complexities of music.

Lol

And don't get me started on drummers...

[Meggy]

Meggy, never listen to bass players, they only use one finger at a time.

Bass players are only in bands to move the heavy stuff and roll cigarettes while the musicians work on the complexities of music.

Lol

Careful!, I've sent him a link to this thread in case he could glean anything from the replies. And he is a great bass player, and guitarist as well, plus a very nice chap.

[John A.]

"Proof" that variations in magnets, windings, and bobbins affect pick-up tone to an extent that can't be overcome by other elements of the guitar-amp system would entail double-blind, controlled experiments of each of these elements under true "all else equal" conditions, with measurable and repeatable results. There are huge practical barriers to that sort of experiment, and I've never seen anything close to it. Absent that, based on what we know about induction and electronics, and on the extent of anecdotes, it's plausible that it does make a difference to at least some people. But I don't think it's valid to state it more strongly than that.

John

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[zdub]

Magnetic fields in pickups

[lawson-stone]

It's from a discussion between Heisenberg and Einstein in 1927: Quantum Mechanics, 1925-1927: Heisenberg Recalls a Discussion with Enstein on Observables

THANK YOU for this. You've saved me hours of hunting. As I study it in context, I might need to ask you a few questions to make sure I get what is being said here.

[lawson-stone]

I enjoy your posts Ol' fret

And your previous post just won the Internet for today!

[Thumpalumpacus]

Last year I built a speaker cabinet, 1x12, with a removable back (I play it mostly open-backed nowadays, but sometimes I really want that projection). Anyway, one night a customer who designed and built high-fidelity speakers as a hobby came in and asked what I'd been up to, so I told him. As soon as I got to the part about the closed back option, he quickly interrupted me. "Oh, no! You can't have infinite baffle! It'll sound terrible. What are you thinking?"

I took a couple of minutes to try and explain the benefits of closed-back thump when you're playing stuff like Sabbath, Priest, or other heavy sounds. He just wasn't having it, because the mathematics of an infinite baffle precluded any use of the phenomenon anywhere.

Moral of the story: Some people are wedded to theory, and others are wedded to practicality. It's a rare person who incorporates both into their outlook. No doubt Clinton had enjoyed many great songs recorded using closed-back Marshall cabs.

[Ray175]

@Doctor Jeff - quite right, no explicit mention of Alnico.
However the results obtained from the variety of pickups analysed demonstrates to my satisfaction the principle that

1. the strength of the magentic field is a key factor affecting the signal characteritics
2. magnet composition is a factor impacting the field strength.

For me QED.

[jazzbow]

Careful!, I've sent him a link to this thread in case he could glean anything from the replies. And he is a great bass player, and guitarist as well, plus a very nice chap.

Being a former bass player myself and a very nice chap too, I feel I am best poised to comment.
I see both sides of the coin and being firm in my position on the fence can only reiterate my former comment and adding to it YMMV...... (Phew!)

Lol

[KirkP]

Magnetic fields in pickups

I was trying to find that link for my previous post!

The coil senses perturbations in the magnetic field caused by the presence of a moving string. This link shows that shape of the magnetic field is strongly dependent on the pickup design. It's not a great leap to propose that such dramatic differences in field shape will result in dramatic differences in tone.

I like Jason Lollar's thinking on the subject. He avoids unprovable pseudoscientific claims and focuses on good design, controlled experiments, and quality control.
Jason Lollar: The Pickup Artist

[sgosnell]

I think the resonant frequency, which varies widely between pickups, has the greatest effect on the tone of a pickup, but it's not the only factor. It's a complicated relationship. But I think anyone who can't hear differences in tone between different pickups has a hearing problem of some sort. Which tone is better is entirely subjective. Some pickups do sound almost identical to others, and there's a continuum from identical pickups to those entirely different, in design and sound. If you can't hear the difference between a Strat pickup and a Gibson 57, I think you have some sort of hearing problem.

[add4]

I don't believe that a metal guitar sounds any different than a jazzbox. Does your friend has a scientific experiment to prove it to me? Thanks.




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[zdub]

I was trying to find that link for my previous post!

The coil senses perturbations in the magnetic field caused by the presence of a moving string. This link shows that shape of the magnetic field is strongly dependent on the pickup design. It's not a great leap to propose that such dramatic differences in field shape will result in dramatic differences in tone.

I like Jason Lollar's thinking on the subject. He avoids unprovable pseudoscientific claims and focuses on good design, controlled experiments, and quality control.
Jason Lollar: The Pickup Artist

Great article, thanks for posting. Lollar has a healthy sense of skepticism and isn't afraid to call out some of the BS in the industry.

[Sam Sherry]

The key for me is not, 'Is there a difference,' but 'Is there a difference which can be heard 20 feet from the bandstand with a quartet blowing?'

That comes from being a double bassist. Nobody hears the DB sound a DB player hears. The instrument literally sounds different five feet away. Then add an amp: A whole other game. Then move chairs around the room: Literally another dimension (three really).

For other people, those most-minute sonic differences in the practice or recording studio are the very spice of life. Great for them and great for me: I buy used pickups!

[John A.]

I was trying to find that link for my previous post!

The coil senses perturbations in the magnetic field caused by the presence of a moving string. This link shows that shape of the magnetic field is strongly dependent on the pickup design. It's not a great leap to propose that such dramatic differences in field shape will result in dramatic differences in tone.

I like Jason Lollar's thinking on the subject. He avoids unprovable pseudoscientific claims and focuses on good design, controlled experiments, and quality control.
Jason Lollar: The Pickup Artist

But there are also a lot of reports of people swapping pick-ups of different design and not perceiving dramatic differences and/or being able to find "their" sound with different pick-ups, and (so far as I can tell from googling) not a whole lot of measurements correlating field shape with guitar-output characteristics. So I don't think it's a leap to hypothesize that such differences in field shape make a difference in tone, but given all the other pieces in the sytem + subjectivity/psycho-acoustics, I think it's difficult to conclude that those differences are conistently dramatic.

John

[add4]

Changing pickups still makes sound that's for sure. It won't make your guitar sound like a coffee machine.

Was that the original question?


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[Jonah]

Very good points, though they may open up a can of worms: nothing on earth is stronger than the myths that both the guitar industry and the players have built around the electric guitar!

In Germany there's sort of a heretical bible on this mythical stuff, the scientific research results of Professor Manfred Zollner and his team who published himself the book "Physik der Elektrogitarre" (1290 pages) in 2014 (Buchkritik zu "Physik der Elektrogitarre" - Spektrum der Wissenschaft ).
Parts of the book can be downloaded for free: https://gitec-forum.de/GitecWP/wp-co...arre_GITEC.pdf .

The book was written in German, though they seem to get a translation: Translators Wanted! – Gitec .
The translation efforts appear not overly purposeful for some reason: 1. There was much turmoil even on the coming of the German edition, on the part of the industry and most players who may see their bucks and hopes dashed. Comparable if you would publish the truth on the mineral oil industry or any other strong pool. 2. Mr. Zollner doesn't have to make a living on the electric guitar. 3. Last, but not least, he's not able or willing to provide the necessary reworking, discussing and justifying efforts that would probably kill all of his other scientific projects.

Personally, I'm not much interested in the electric guitar and thus can't/won't chime in in the myths and science of the electric pickup. I see the much higher challenge in the (electro-) acoustic archtop guitar, the focus being on 'acoustic'. However, the mythical situation of the acoustic archtop is not so different. Myths that serve exclusively pecuniary interests have to be debunked! Really great that the US Administrations have set Volkswagen straight - in Germany VW has absolutely nothing changed by now, except for some mythical updates of the electronic control units...

Well, for fun and in turn, I could tell that some features on US top-end archtop guitars are fair to middling. Just one single example: compare the primitive shape and elaboration of the tonebars of some US archtops to German ones. Interested? How please, you're indignant now? Won't have a look at what violin and lute makers empirically found in more than five centuries, and what physicists, engineers and other scientific researchers just are beginning to confirm, against great resistance? You're a strict follower of psychoacoustics, exceptionalism, swarm fondness and myths spread and uphold by certain brands?
Well, I see... that's the reason why no serious public discussion and general improvement of the archtop guitar will ever be possible, certainly not online. That's ok; people who want to penetrate more deeply into the subject will always find a way, what the above-mentioned book is likely to prove.

Though I just recently opened similar thread only on the effect of other parts of electric guitar... and I find it is interesting topic too.

And I also agree that electic guitar is much stronger subject to this kind of mythology...
I never heard classical players discuss the influence of the fretboard of nuts with such an intensity and cinsitency as electric guitar players do...

But on the other hand I think we should not overstress its importance...

I think that ears go first and last in judgement of these things... I mean we can proove physically whatever... but if ears tell me diffrent I will fololw my ears... even if it is unlogical irrational subjective .etc.

Because I use it for music, and music is all about 'psycoacoustics'...

[KirkP]

I don't think the OP's bass-player friend would deny that major design differences are audible -- e.g., Tele vs. Strat vs. Humbucker vs. P90. It's the minor tweaks where things get dicey and subject to confirmation bias -- e.g., magnet material, scatter winding, sprinkling with mummy dust.

The OP started the thread by saying he usually changes pickups when he acquires a new guitar. That makes no sense to me, so I wonder if that's what his friend is really objecting to. Typically, I won't change a pickup unless I can identify a specific deficiency with it that can't be overcome with proper setup and EQ adjustment. I wonder how many perfectly good pickups have been discarded by people who never took the time to give the original pickup a chance. I wonder how much of the "improvement" they heard was due to the fact that a tech took the time to properly adjust the replacement pickup and the player took the time to find the best EQ settings.

I'm not trying to shame the OP -- I'm just speculating.

[Meggy]

I don't think the OP's bass-player friend would deny that major design differences are audible -- e.g., Tele vs. Strat vs. Humbucker vs. P90. It's the minor tweaks where things get dicey and subject to confirmation bias -- e.g., magnet material, scatter winding, sprinkling with mummy dust.

The OP started the thread by saying he usually changes pickups when he acquires a new guitar. That makes no sense to me, so I wonder if that's what his friend is really objecting to. Typically, I won't change a pickup unless I can identify a specific deficiency with it that can't be overcome with proper setup and EQ adjustment. I wonder how many perfectly good pickups have been discarded by people who never took the time to give the original pickup a chance. I wonder how much of the "improvement" they heard was due to the fact that a tech took the time to properly adjust the replacement pickup and the player took the time to find the best EQ settings.

I'm not trying to shame the OP -- I'm just speculating.

Appreciate your not trying to shame me - in my defense, I did play the guitar for a while with the original pickups, including doing a couple of gigs. Shocking I know, but I bought the guitar from someone on the internet because I liked the looks, and just had a hunch I'd like the guitar generally - so I never tried it prior to purchase.

With stock pickups, I found I was having to set the eq on my amp notably differently where I generally have things set, and even then, it just didn't seem quite right to me. All this is down to personal taste of course - the stock pickups would probably be just fine for a lot of people. Anyhow, I ordered the new pickups with specs I felt would work better for me (including the magnet type) and after some consultation with the pickup maker. And in my opinion, the change was a success - it got the amplified tone into the general kind of tone ballpark I like, and I was always confident that the guitar itself was a nice instrument that could work for me. Just from my own subjective experience, my strong opinion is that magnet type, among other things, does have a not insignificant influence on the tone produced.

[Jonah]

It's the thing about electrics... when you get an electric guitar there are many parts that can be changed... and Fender made almost any part changeable relatively simply...

So the player is easily tempted into the world of never-ending opportunies - change the pickups, change the bridge, the neck, the routing, the nut, the wire, the amp, the speaker, the tubes, the.. then different conbinations.

Maybe that's why there are so many sound nerds among electric guitasrists - most of them speak about the sound or the tone first... I like his sound... what is the gear to get hos sound...

I know personaly a few rock guys - who do not really even play but smell a mapple neck from mile away..

This is fantastic marketing opportunities!