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First I do not consider attack, playing style, picks, string gauge, pedals, effects, amps and so on...
I speak only about guitar construction.
I also do not take in consideration audible at low volumes of amps - acoustic sound from archtops, semi-hollows or even solid-bodies...
Only the sound that goes from teh speaker...
I do not have vast experience on electrics... but the more guitars I play the more I think that it is only pickups that are important for teh sound in guitar construction.
Lots of discussions are there about body shape, body, fretboard and neck material, nuts and bridges...
As I understand the pickup picks the steel string vibrations... only this and nothing else.
For sure it does not pick up vibration of the body... so how can shape or material of the body or neck have any influence on it?
Considering this I suppose only nut and bridge may to some extent have an influence on sound since they are conected with string directly... but even with them imho it concertns only stability of sound and sustain and it depends more on quality of lworkmanship but not the material..
how - just physically - can the material of the bridge or nut be effective on electrics?
It is important on acoustic. But what is its influence on electric sound? If it's bone or plastic or tusq or bronze how would it change the vibration of the same string (especially fretted)?
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03-23-2017 07:48 AM
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Jonah - you are both right and wrong.
To first order, you are correct that the pickup only detects the motion of the strings. However, that motion is very complex in terms of the time dependence of the fundamental frequency and all its harmonics. Crucially, this dynamic response and harmonic content is dependent upon the guitar construction. There is a complex feedback loop between the vibration that is started in the string, which is transferred into the body and transferred back into the string. You have to treat the guitar as a whole system. The acoustic properties of each part influences how the system behaves as a whole. Hence the construction, beyond the nut and bridge influence how the strings vibrate. You can easily prove this by listening to different guitars with the same pickup. The greatest differences are apparent when you compare a solid body, a semi-hollow and a full hollow body guitar with the same pickup - they can sound totally different. Or compare different hollow body designs with the same pickup - again different.
To second order, the pickup is also vibrating with respect to the string. Particularly body mounted pickups on a hollow guitar will be vibrating with the sound board which acts as a further perturbation to the detection of the string vibration. How much the pickup vibration is out of phase with the string is completely dependent on guitar construction and so will vary between guitar designs.
For further evidence on how guitar construction effects the sound through the amp, just read some of the threads here comparing ES175s from different eras and also those that compare Gibson 175s with copies from other manufacturers. Even the Epiphone 175 with identical pickups to a Gibson 175 can sound quite different to the GibsonLast edited by newsense; 03-23-2017 at 08:45 AM.
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You simply cannot remove touch, attack, style, pick, etc. from the equation. The sum of all these variables combined can easily outweigh the factors of wood selection, design and construction. Jim Hall playing a LPC sounds remarkably similar to Jim playing a 175, D'Aquisto or Sadowsky specifically because of the elements that you are discounting.
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For a pure solid body, pu's probably are 90% of the difference.
But wood is different. You can walk on oak flooring, and it feels different than maple flooring--like old time bowling alleys. Drop a bowling ball on the two, and for sure, they will sound different.
A lot of this stuff is imperfectly understood. Granted, there is "mojo mysticism" operating in some of this.
Two identical grapes (or mixtures) grown in different places will produce different tasting wines. The 1855 classification of French Bordeaux chateau, for the most part, still holds up, and this was done on the basis of historical market prices....empirical information, without the benefit of modern-day chemical analysis.
Instrument design is a crazy quilt of science, custom, and accident. (the Les Paul, for e.g.)
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I agree about treatment guitar as a whole system. That feedback loop, is it really significant? I do not think that body vibration is even in teh least compareble to the string vibration... for sure not to effect on it seriously.To first order, you are correct that the pickup only detects the motion of the strings. However, that motion is very complex in terms of the time dependence of the fundamental frequency and all its harmonics. Crucially, this dynamic response and harmonic content is dependent upon the guitar construction. There is a complex feedback loop between the vibration that is started in the string, which is transferred into the body and transferred back into the string. You have to treat the guitar as a whole system.
Even in good acoustic guitars body resonance does not give much feedback ob strings...
To be honest I would agree more with the theory that body costrustion works as an absorber of string vibration.
Meaning that the woods and construction may result in which frequences will die out first...
I did compare different Ibanez guitars with the same pickups and I did not hear much difference except that with hollow and semi-hollow I could hear acoustic sound mixed in.
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Of course if think of a player's sound...You simply cannot remove touch, attack, style, pick, etc. from the equation. The sum of all these variables combined can easily outweigh the factors of wood selection, design and construction. Jim Hall playing a LPC sounds remarkably similar to Jim playing a 175, D'Aquisto or Sadowsky specifically because of the elements that you are discounting.
Any more or less serious player has some consistency in playing and sounds very close on any guitar...
But my question is more practical...
for example I am thinking about changeng nut on solid body from plastic to bone... and I want to figure out if it really makes much sense or not
I have no doubt with acoustice - it does!
But on electrics I am not that sure...
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With any acoustic system
You have to consider the whole acoustic/electric
system ....
For example
The strings energy goes into the body
The bodies energy goes back to the string etc
It is extremely complex
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How much energy goes back from teh body to the string?The strings energy goes into the body
The bodies energy goes back to the string etc
It is extremely complex
Try strumming all-massive super-jumbo - the body will vibrate like MF... then mute the strings and let them go immediately...
will the body vibration render energy to strings enough to make them even audible?
I do not even mention comparable to string vibratio...
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however complex, it is still simple enough:
there's vibration and resonator first of all... not chain of vibration in feedback...
so in acoustic nuts, bridges, woods, glues, construction effect the qualities of body as a resonator first of all ...
String vibration - in this complex system - depends as I believe on a few quite simple factors like nut and bridge construction and work...
I do not think any luthier seriously considers body feedback on strings...
It's like that in acoustics
in electrics pickups + preamp + amp function like a resonator
When acoustics are there... nobody says you should consider the wood because it will give some of its energy back to strings (at least I never heard it)...
But when we come to electrics suddenly it becomes very important - or even crucialLast edited by Jonah; 03-23-2017 at 10:29 AM.
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Common sense tells us that it makes a difference whether the guitar is hollow, solid, maple, spruce etc. I believe that I can hear a difference between my solid bodies and my archtops. But blindfold tests have also told us that even seasoned guitarists often can't tell solid bodies apart from archtops. Go figure.
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A guitar is a system with a feedback loops between the string and all the other elements. Method of construction, mass, shape, and materials of the body and neck all affect the envelope of notes and the way overtone series develop, hence they affect timbre. Play a full hollow body, a semi, and a solid with the same strings and pickups (an easy experiment to perform in any shop that carries a reasonably full line of, say, Gibsons). They sound different.
Originally Posted by Jonah
Re: Bridge _material_ on an electric, I've not personally done anything close to all-else-equal comparisons, so I can't say from direct experience, but there is tons of opinion and anecdote out there attesting to perceptible differences. It's not hard to envision why -- the string is always in contact with the bridge, and different materials (even in items that have the same shape and mass) can have different physical properties that interact in a feedback loop with string vibration (e.g., resonance and friction). FWIW I swapped a saddle an acoustic guitar (from wood to tusq), and the difference was very noticeable.
Re: nut material, from what I can tell there's less consensus that it makes a difference, and a less clear explanation as to how it could make a difference on fretted notes. My (unscientific) theory is that it does make a difference because there is at least a little vibration of the short length of string between the nut and the fretting finger, and this is part of the "system" that feeds back into string vibration. My only data point is that I replaced a plastic nut with a bone nut on my strat, and it sounded a little different afterwards (it seemed to have a tiny bit more harmonic content and "bloom" to the notes). However, I had the frets ground and polished and a set-up done at the same time, so I can't say for sure how much of the change was due just to the nut.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 03-23-2017 at 11:22 AM.
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It might make a difference. But trying to reason it out from first principles is the wrong way to answer the question, because this forces you into circular reasoning. It either does or it doesn't, and the only way to answer the question is to change the nut while holding all else equal and take measurements and/or blind listening tests before and after. Construct a theory as to why it did or didn't make a difference after the experiment, not before. Originally Posted by Jonah
My limited experience is that I think it made a slight difference on a strat. However I changed the nut because the slots were in bad shape and this was causing other issues, not because I was looking for a different sound. The luthier said bone was better. I took his word for it. So my advice would be, if it's broken, change it. If it's not broken, but you're curious, only do it if it's not a big hassle and/or expense for you.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 03-23-2017 at 12:11 PM.
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Many pickups can be microphonic (to varying degrees) and can amplify the mechanical and air wave vibrations (i.e.acoustic) of the guitar along with the electromagnetic field signal. Hence, they will sound different from one guitar to the next if the guitars sound different acoustically. If a pickup is made especially non-microphonic with wax etc your argument holds largely true. The sustain factor and the type of strings (flat woud vs round wound) are also important and may be audible in my opinion.
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Honestly, Jonah, I don't know where you are getting your information. EVERY serious luthier of acoustics considers the body's feedback on the strings. In the class I help teach we regularly will pluck a string, say open E, and immediately mute it but not the other strings. The body feedback makes the other strings sing for a good while. That is one of the learning tools we use to show just how complex the feedback loop is. Did you even try that before you stated that it does not happen? Originally Posted by Jonah
While I generally don't believe back and side wood matter that much, most high end acoustic builders (and their customers) obsess endlessly on the relative merits of different back and side woods for their ability to color the tone.
I don't know much about electric guitar construction, but when it comes to acoustic instruments what you've said is contrary to everything I've learned in over a decade of building, learning, attending seminars, and study.
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Some folks maintain that they can hear differences in guitars/amps/whatever that others can't hear - in their minds, this makes them better musicians.......the jury is still out on this. I take offense at someone telling me that I should be hearing something just because they hear it - doesn't work that way....everyone's ears are different. My old (almost 72) ears have been through a lot including 50 years of standing in front of amplifiers, loud drummers, and southeast Asian artillery and machine guns and I can hear what I hear and refuse to pay any attention to anyone telling me what they think I should hear. Most of this stuff, you can probably see on an oscilloscope but, in the real world, in a crowded club, I feel it's a moot point. Just my $.02.
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A few thoughts...
In my 20-odd years of playing, I've agreed with some "tone changers" I heard people speak of, and disagreed with others. I've heard things make a big difference on one guitar and no difference on another. I've heard things make a small difference folks swore up and down would make a big difference, and things make a huge difference folks told me would do nothing.
All my experiences I can validate only with MY ears.
If you think about it, really, EVERYTHING can effect vibration. How much? Depends. But I mean, take a solid body guitar, play it with two different picks of different thickness or material. Bam, It's right there. Everything that the string touches or that vibrates when it does can effect the sound.
Or not.
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So true. I was amazed how much difference changing between similar appearing picks made. One very dark and an almost cline of it to the eye VERY bright with a pronounced "click" on the attack. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's just picks .... oh, and change the hand position slightly so rather than the flat side you're using the edge of the pickup. One pick, not much different ... but with another pick, *that* changes the tone by a massive amount.
Some picks sounded the same acoustically but very different via the amplifier.
So I now agree with some of the advice I've seen here. If you don't like the tone you're getting try picks first. Cheaper and quicker, then you can move up to cords which do far less than picks (in most cases), pickups, wiring harness changes, and amps.
Neil
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
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I can definately hear the difference maple neck vs mahogany neck thru the electric sound. It's very obvious, and find it a bit strange if an accomplished guitarist can't hear it?
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I was not annoyed at all...You start off saying you lack much experience, and then get annoyed when everyone spends a good deal of time explaining why you're wrong?
But after this your post I am... a little bit.
If you read some emotions between the lines, instead of contents, it's not my problem.
Just to explain myself a bit to all those who kindly answered...
I also read many threads of the kind and some articles, sometimes it seems that people just repeat what they heard or read somewhere too... (both those who say there's no difference, or there's difference).
I put a thread here because I have been on the forum quite long and trust the opinion of many members.
This is discussion for me, exchange of experience, opinions, and arguments... I am absolutely open for anything.
I have some experience with acoustics, a few lutes and one baroque guitar were made for me and I participated actively in the process.. sinve I am intersted in construction.
I also usually check every new acoustic instrument from these luthiers I work with, discuss some details and so on.
They never considered problem of acoustic feedback... what they work with usually is how control and balance frequences in resonator... mostly the conception is about reducing undesireble frequencies..
But tbh on acoustic it's often very difficult to get what exactly effects the sound... the sound of the good acoustic is usually too complex...
My question here is caused by the fact that recently I got interested in solid bodies and tried to find more on construction and all...
I am not trying to convince people they do not hear what they hear... on the contrary usually I am after personal experience first of all...
But exactly in this case I am really interested in physical aspects of it...
I do not deny that a giutar is an integral system.. but still I cannot just get the physics...
Just physically: the solid body resonance is so poor, how can differnce in wood effect string vibration crucially?Last edited by Jonah; 03-23-2017 at 02:25 PM.
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I can't... juut putting it honestlyI can definately hear the difference maple neck vs mahogany neck thru the electric sound. It's very obvious, and find it a bit strange if an accomplished guitarist can't hear it?
I also cannot hear difference between mahogany and rosewood on acoustics... though I feel rosewood like warmer while playing and maybe it makes me hear it a bit warmer?
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Strange it may be, but I've got about 40 years pro/semi pro on stage, repair, building and teaching experience and would consider myself a somewhat accomplished guitarist and I cannot tell the difference between two different neck or fingerboard woods. It could be that it is just too minor a difference for me to even be concerned about. This goes back to an interview I read once in which one of Jerry Garcia's roadies stated that Jerry could tell the difference between chrome and brass ends on his guitar cables without looking, which, in my opinion, is total BS. There are far too many players out there who are trying to inflate their abilities (and egos) by spewing esoteric differences in various pieces of equipment that are only measurable by scientific instrumentation. They try to make you think that, if you don't know the secret handshake, you can't be considered one of the 'cool cats'. If you think you can hear differences, then 'good for you', but don't go counting others out as 'un-accomplished if they don't hear it the same way. Also, by time you put a fuzz box, chorus, delay and a half a dozen other effects between the guitar and amp, it's anybody's guess what's going on. Originally Posted by Jx30510
Oh, and by the way, I can hear a difference in picks.....Fender 358 mediums and heavies for me....I also like carefully shaped and sanded pieces of deceased sea creatures but we won' t go there.Last edited by Skip Ellis; 03-23-2017 at 02:42 PM.
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It is complex but simply summed up - yes the string sound being brought to the amp by the pickup is the only thing that we hear through the amp. Every little thing about a guitar's construction, though, affects how the string vibrates, how much sound is coming out and by extension all of those things affect what we hear through the amplifier. If you had a robot arm playing various guitars and scientific instruments reading the sound somehow you would see differences even between guitars that are the same. Whether some people can hear it or not doesn't matter - the differences are there and go beyond just hollowbody, semi hollow or solid body.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Some more fodder for the food :-)
Is it an Archtop or a Telecaster? A listening Challenge.
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Well a maple neck makes the guitar sound clearer and more brighter.
A mahogany neck (I'm not talking about the fingerboard here) gives a warmer sound, darker and a little compressed, tighter.
I don't think it's some kind of legend or cork sniffing or whatever, the difference is there.
I'm very suprised this can be talked over, it is so evident?
An ES 175 with a maple neck sound very different from a one with a mahogany neck
A L-4 with a mahogany body sounds different from a maple bodied one.
All of this is finally not that important, playing is the important thing. I would be curious if you asked a very experienced luthier what he thinks about it?
My luthier explained me once that choosing pickups that tune well with the wood on solid bodies was important.
If the guitar is very well built, different woods in a same build will be audible.
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You're assuming that "resonance" (without defining the term) is the factor that matters, and that it's "poor" (without defining what "poor"means), and then you're concluding that solid body guitars can't sound different from each other because they're built from different wood species because of this poor resonance. That's completely circular reasoning disconnected from any real-world observations. Originally Posted by Jonah
You have to start with observations, such as the differences people perceive and/or measure between the tones of guitars made out of different wood species that are otherwise identical. This is actually a real-world situation, and you can easily find anecdotes (if not well constructed data sets). For example, Fender makes some versions of the same models out of alder and some out of ash (often, opaque finished guitars are alder and clear or sunburst are ash). If you google some variant of "ash vs alder strat " (or tele) you'll find a huge number of accounts of differences between the two. You have to take this with many grains of salt because these are not controlled blind tests and because the reports are inconsistent. But I think it's probably not unreasonable on balance to say "yup, there probably is a bit of a difference sometimes."
OK, then. Are there differences between the characteristics of these two wood species that might contribute to differences in timbre?
Look here:
Swamp Ash | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Hardwood)
Red Alder | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Hardwood)
There are ranges of values for density, hardness, elasticity, strength, etc. The ranges intersect but do not fully overlap
My guess (informed by a very small amount of reading in materials science and by playing a lot of guitars) is that density and elasticity have significant interactions with string vibration and contribute to different resonant/damping properties. This strikes me as a plausible explanation for why some alder strats sound different from some ash strats.
Also, back to your point about "resonance" I don't know what guitars you're thinking of, but with every solidbody I've ever played, if I put my ear up against it and play it I hear a big, full sound. Also, I have a strat. In addition to this body resonance, it also has various parts that go "boing" and a floating bridge that vibrates and moves under changes in string tension. There is absolutely no way you will ever convince me that the only reason it sounds different from my humbucker-equipped semi-hollow (and boy does it sound different) is the pickups.
John
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