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Whatever pickup you use, it 's only going to pickup and amplify the guitar's acoustic tone. In a different way sure, depending on what pickup it is (single, double, low or high output, active, etc..), but still, a dog is still going to sound weak, a mediocre guitar will sound mediocre and a great one great. I think, once you settle on the elements you prefer, pickups, shapes, sizes, neck, frets, setup etc, a guitar is the woods it's made from, meaning the woods on the particular instrument and not necessarily the wood types, that's what makes it or brakes it.
I have collector friends that buy 4-5 pieces of a particular strat or gibson model at a time, they all sound different, each and every guitar. I 've also had friends use the same pickup set on different guitars of same model, you get a different sound each time. And if you change pickups on a guitar, the weaknesses or strengths ofthe instrument are still there, just amplified differently.
And i 've never really cared for the percentage thing to rate the sound of an instrument. A weak guitar is a weak guitar, and a great one is a great one. What meaning is there in saying its just a 20% or 2% difference. You either hear it or you don't. Believe me, we 'd all like for a 100$ guitar to be the thing with a great set of pickups, but unfortunately that's not the case. Especially when playing in gig situations.
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03-23-2017 04:11 PM
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I'm waiting for someone to tell us that the Ph of the skin of the player's fingers will cause a change in tone depending on whether they had Italian or Japanese food for dinner last night......or whether they had white or red wine with that dinner. Oh wait.....and how long is their guitar cable and is the guitar nut made of buffalo or reindeer bone?
As an aside: folks make a big deal out of 'scatter' winding pickups these days trying to recapture the sound of the old pickups, especially those made by the nice Mexican ladies working for Leo. They wound every one, guiding the wire off the spool by hand and eye to the prescribed number of turns that the plan called for, then going on to the next one. Since each of these pickups was wound completely by eye and hand by these non-technically trained individuals with no idea of anything other than getting the wire on the bobbin in a reasonably even manner, I would suggest that, other than approximate final resistance (which varied), no two of these pickups were ever the same anyway. Like anything else there were good ones and bad ones......so which are we trying to duplicate?
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The nut and bridge couple the string to the neck and body structure. As the string induces vibrations in the structure of the guitar, the vibrations of the string are affected altering the tone, attack, and decay. This will greatly affect the tone through a magnetic pickup. Also, magnetic pickups can be microphonic to some degree, but for a potted pickup that's a secondary effect.
Here's a book on science of stringed intruments. You'll find lots of info with a google search using terms like "string instrument mathematical model".
http://logosfoundation.org/kursus/Th...nstruments.pdfLast edited by KirkP; 03-23-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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Cable length certainly affects sound, because it affects overall capacitance. Whether higher or lower is better is entirely subjective. Absolutely every aspect of a guitar influences the sound, but whether any individual aspect can actually be heard is problematic. The nut material certainly affects tone, but I'm not sure it affects it enough to by heard by any individual. Some of us hear better than others, without a doubt. The metal from which the plug is made affects the tone, but I'm hesitant to believe that it affects it enough be be recognized in the same room, let alone recognized at a new location. Obviously some factors are more important than others, and there is a long continuum along which they lie. Ultimately it all comes down to an individual, who decides "I like this", "I prefer that", and the pocketbook. If you believe that one thing is better than another, and your pocketbook will cover the one, you have the right to buy it. But you shouldn't judge anyone else who prefers "that", for whatever reason, whether he can hear a difference or not.
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Well said. And that's enough for me concerning this thread. Bonne continuation.
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I was thincking right about it...As the string induces vibrations in the structure of the guitar, the vibrations of the string are affected altering the tone, attack, and decay.
many say about backward vibration (or feedback from the body to teh string) - that I do not really understand.
The guitar body is a resonator (wether the body is hollow or solid no matter)
To my understanding resonator is passive, it is sorting out frequencies (maybe forward frequencies.. I am not a physician I do not know how to explain it correctly, but anyways it is passive...)
And this effects what we recieve at the end as a sound
But with acoustic resonator is simultaneously an 'amplifier' - so the vibrations in the sound are not only those of the string (but also teh body, opther strings and overtones etc) - if I may say so...
And with electrics it can be effective only as it effects string vibration - because whatever the resonator does with initial vibration it does not go further in the chain.... does not go out... as with acoustics
since the pickup is still picking up only the string vibration.
the body can only absorbe or suck out the string vibration...
What I think could be important is the quality of resonator - how it is built, from what.... even with electric guitar too.
(In real practice it may be a bit more complex or sublte of course... like you mentioned the pickups could be microfonic, also other strings may vibrate etc. - but will it all be really significant with electric guitar I am not sure)
What do you think?
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I don't think a solid body is a resonator. You might be confusing vibration with resonance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Jonah - you are right to question the concept of feedback from body to string - which is the term I introduced in post #2 of the thread. What I should have said is that to scientists and engineers a guitar is what is known as a lossy, coupled system. In a coupled system, irrespective of where the vibration starts, every part of the system effects every other part, sometimes weakly and sometimes strongly.
Originally Posted by Jonah
We tend to think of the vibration of the string as being a standing wave of fixed wavelength determined by the length of the string. That is only correct as long as the energy within the string is perfectly reflected by the nut and bridge. However, we know that isn't true, as in acoustic (and all other) guitars energy is transferred to the body - which is usually how we hear an acoustic guitar. Rigorously that means we have to extend our consideration of the vibration of the string to the body as a whole. That is when we pluck the string we are actually exciting the whole guitar. You cannot treat the string as though it were isolated from the rest of the instrument. This is where, in a tutorial with my students, I would turn to the whiteboard and draw pictures to help explain - but I'm sure there are such tutorials on the web and I have to go to work shortly, so I won't go any further with the physics.
There has been much discussion above about how a specific nut material or different tone woods, etc might influence the tone of an electric guitar. In principle all these things influence how the string vibrates, but the physical concept alone doesn't tell us how much each may influence what you hear. That is usually done by experiment- and in the case of experienced luthiers, those experiments can last a lifetime.
I am professionally involved in the design of acoustic systems, unfortunately not guitars, but naval sonar and ultrasound transducers. We know that if we change any part of these devices, it influences the performance profoundly. However, we don't have a lifetime to conduct our experiments, so we use finite element analysis embedded in reassuringly expensive software to predict how the design of the device, including the subtleties of whether to use steel or titanium for the body, influences the acoustic output. Same problem as a guitar - alder or ash for the body ?
On my bucket list of future projects is to apply our FEM software to guitars. Start simple - the telecaster - and work up form there. It may have to wait for my retirement !
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I've just found something that looks like required reading:
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Been playing almost 40 years, I can hear many (not all) of the differences described in this thread. For instance the difference between a maple vs rosewood fretboard on a Strat or Tele is, to me, obvious. Lately been exploring the sonic differences between solid carved top Archie's vs laminated.
We should congratulate the OP on not being able to hear these differences, you will save much time and money. What my wife wouldn't give if she could convince me that all electrified guitars pretty much sound the same so I could just be happy with a cheap Ibanez guitar and get on with making music. I find it both a blessing and a curse, but I wouldn't give it up for anything. I enjoy being able to hear these differences. But again, if you can't I think you are better off and shouldn't try to develop it.
Having said that there's really no point in coming to a forum like this and trying to convince the rest of us that we can't hear these differences. As Mr. Soloway so succinctly put it that's just going to lead to arguments and hurt feelings and I really don't think we need more of that. Good luck to you.
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SkipEllis,
I realize you were only 3/8ths serious but, some people's ph balance or imbalance will cause strings to corrode & rust very very quickly, so even though I personally cannot smell a 9 volt battery and tell you if it's almost spent, I'll say it is possible for a players ph to affect tone
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When I am practicing at home my cat often sleeps right next to me... when she yawns I can really hear how it influences the sound
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One of the reasons why I got interested was also that I noticed that with acoustics (I have a background with acoustic instruments) there's some consistency about material.. but even when a different material is used you do not think of it much just listen how it sounds...
Only top (cedar, or spruce) could be really in focus...
Of course there are also different preferences for the sides and back and neck and fretboard...
but in general it takes much less attention from players' side, much less discussion - usually luthiers think about it more.
Maybe because the variety of possible material is not so big...
Mu lutes and guitars were either mapple or rosewood body (I know that flamenco use cypruss too but not always)... I played also a lute with walnut body... but mostly it did not change anything much.... too many other factors are involved so you take the resultative sound in considertation.
And when I got to electrics - it seems like mapple neck or not is one of the most important questions...
That just made me think also.. that maybe partly it is marketing issue?
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I fall into the camp that thinks most things affect the sound to some extent.
Consider the difference between a Les Paul and a Telecaster. They're both essentially wooden planks, but they sound very different.
Yes, the pickups are very different, but you can put humbuckers on a tele and it still won't sound anything like a Les Paul. I think the difference in neck scale is a big factor. Wood type is another, on both the body and the neck. Anybody who's owned a few of these things over the years can tell you that a tele with a maple fingerboard is a tad brighter than one with a rosewood fingerboard. The longer scale of a tele neck also makes it brighter and creates more sustain. Not dramatically so, but all these factors add up. A lot of people put brass bridge saddles on teles to make them brighter and more resonant. They also affect sustain. Swamp ash bodies sound a bit brighter, and I think alder sounds a little fuller somehow.
These are just a few of the variables. Strings, picks, touch, the way you attack a note, where you pick, the pickups, the straightness of the strings' path beyond the bridge and the nut, the bridge and nut themselves, fret wire, the weight of the instrument, the density and dryness of the wood, the height of the pickup, etc. are all factors. Some make a negligible and some are dramatic. The list is long. And the kind of amp, speaker(s) and sound processing you use is a huge factor in sound, maybe a bigger one than the guitar itself. And while you may want to remove touch from the equation for the purposes of comparison, most good players sound like themselves no matter what instrument they're playing. I think tone is mostly in the hands.
People can debate these issues back and forth all day long on forums, but I think the only way to really know what combination of factors will work for you is to have different kinds of guitars in your hands over a period of time and to try them with different kinds of setups. You have to compare these things within the context of the touch and style you've developed on the instrument. That either takes a lot of money or a lot of years, probably both. On the other hand, some people just pick an instrument they like, figure out how to make it work for them and play it the rest of their lives. Maybe that's better in terms of focusing your time and attention on the music. In any case, I think the sound of an instrument needs to work within the context of the music you play, the way you play and the sound you're seeking. It has to work for you, and it has to serve the music that you want to play. Nobody can tell you what's "best." You have to figure that out for yourself. Personally, I think it's about the journey.
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On a mechanical point of view, everything starting with the finger tips and pick, up to the guitar as a whole bunch of coupled vibration conducting elements.
On an electrical / signal point of view, it is dependant on the pickups and electronic but more in terms of tolerance and specs.
The guitar tone as a whole is a sum of all those things and while we can have a general idea of what we could target, it might be in the end different than expected.
Each piece of wood is unique because of its grain, density humidity level and so on, so each combination of wood, metal and electronics actual specs (tolerance) will have an influence.
In my case for instance, my latest Warmoth build is made of a solid mahogany tele body and a mahogany/rosewood 25.5 scale neck combined with a Gibson 490R neck pup and my choice of electronics while retaining the traditional tele string through bridge.
I was looking for something like a Les Paul or SG but with more assertion and clarity and its exactly what I got.
Everything in the chain affect the tone, the fun part is in matching the right individual components together and then enjoy or not its outcome.
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for example, let's say you go to the gibson or fender factory, take all les pauls strats or teles, from the cheapest models (epiphone - squier too) to custom shop ones, and put the same pickups and hardware on all of them. There are going to be general similarities and guidelines on the sound (guitar types, hardware and .. pickups
) , but also great differences from instrument to instrument (the quality of the particular wood combination). Or go to a big guitar center and just try guitars.
Now whether the differences are noticeable to a player or more importantly, worthy of the $$$ differences is a subjective thing, and usually comes with experience of ''better'' instruments, played in loud volume
, has to do with personal need, finances, taste, etc.. For example, me being a player passionate about jazz, acoustic and classical guitars, i sometimes do electric gigs with a partcaster tele, even with an epiphone on occasion, both with the pickups i like on them. Were i fanatic about electrics, both of these guitars would be gone by now, but.. there re ok for what i do with them.
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File or sand a *very* slight change in a pick, either rounding or sharpening the point, but by only a very small amount ... and you have a completely different tone to the amplifier. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Or religion On a more serious note, the one thing I know for sure is that the length and edge finish of my nails has a huge impact on may tone, maybe even more than the guitar I'm playing.
For finger playing, a change to your nails as you note ... can be a major change.
A friend is a college professor and a concert guitarist along with being one of the more prominent harp guitarists today. He's gone to artificial nails for his right hand just to be able to make a completely controlled and repeatable sound. Trying to keep his fingernails precisely the same was driving him nuts.
Neil
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
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Watch this video Originally Posted by Jonah
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That's a nice demonstration. Of course, on guitar we don't have two identical objects coupled together. The body has more mass and more losses than the string. To simulate this effect (not affect!), one might replace the 2nd egg with an ostrich egg (perhaps even putting it in a bucket of water). The ostrich egg will begin to vibrate, but the vibration of both eggs will then damp out. That's more or less what's happening with the guitar string. Originally Posted by pingu
Someone mentioned feedback. At high volume levels the sound from the speaker does excite the guitar's body, which excites the string, which does come through the pickup. Feedback can affect tone even if volume is set below the level that induces oscillation. I notice this especially with carved archtops. I describe it as boxy, boomy tone. The cure is to turn down and or move the speaker further from the guitar's body.
Fysics is Phun!
Last edited by KirkP; 03-24-2017 at 08:13 PM.
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W Originally Posted by whiskey02
SkipEllis,
I realize you were only 3/8ths serious but, some people's ph balance or imbalance will cause strings to corrode & rust very very quickly, so even though I personally cannot smell a 9 volt battery and tell you if it's almost spent, I'll say it is possible for a players ph to affect tone
When I was young and rich and owned a music store, I changed strings every week for this very reason. Now, I just wipe 'em down and keep on playing.
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I don't think there's a great difference in tone between a good quality plastic and bone nut if each are set up correctly. Even if there were a detectable difference on an open string, once the string is fretted the coupling through the nut is pretty much out of the equation. The most important considerations for nut material are low friction (for tuning) and durability (so the slots keep their shape). This opinion is based on experience with my own guitars, knowledge of physics, and some readings of luthiers. I don't claim to be an expert. Originally Posted by Jonah
When I need a new nut (e.g., to recut slots) I specify bone because they aren't that much more expensive, but I won't replace a perfectly good plastic nut with bone in the future.Last edited by KirkP; 03-25-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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A simple DIY experiment -- Plug in the your guitar, turn up the volume as high as you dare (before feedback), then tap on your guitar in many locations from one end to the other. You'll get a pretty good idea of how strongly each part of the guitar couples to the pickup, and what frequency ranges are most affected at each location. Try this on a solid body, laminated hollowbody, and carved archtop. It should give you a better idea of how the guitar construction affects tone. It might also help feel you're a little more connected to the instrument when you return to the bandstand. Originally Posted by Jonah
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