Lawsuit 175 and Ibanez - No bracing and a sound post?

[rio]

So I was just changing the strings of my '77 D'Agostino to 13 rounds with a 14 and 18 on the E and B strings - I had the E and B like that already but had TI flats from a 12 gauge set on the lower strings and the guitar sounds much better with the heavier strings and the roundwounds suit it well since it is a dark guitar. I was curious about the internal structure of the guitar since I was thinking about the sound, how it relates to a Gibson ES-175 and whatnot and I found a surprise.

There is a rather thick square column soundpost glued in the guitar. This was not so much of a surprise since I have seen soundposts before - I had just never noticed it until sticking my camera in the f hole to check out the bracing. What was a surprise though was that I see no bracing under the top. I can't view the upper bout under the top but I see no bracing whatsoever under the top of the lower bout of the body.

I have never heard of this before and I googled it but can't find anything regarding an archtop with no bracing. I don't know the name of it (little help please) but there is also not the wood around the corners inside where the top and back meet the sides - it just looks like a wooden box in there. Guess I will have to use the term box more with this guitar.

It was built alongside Ibanez guitars in whatever factory (again a little help please if you know the factory name) - my Ibanez 2630 was built just a month apart from this D'Agostino in the same factory. Does anyone know if the Ibanez lawsuit 175's have bracing? I assume they do - is it parallel like the Gibson? Any thoughts as to what the heck is going on with this guitar? It is in excellent condition - I would never have guessed that is was a '77 by looking at it. It is nearly mint condition and the top is fine, not sinking or showing any structural issues. The sound post is pretty chunky so I am not too worried about having the heavy strings on it but I would love to know if this was at all a normal thing or if they just forgot to put in bracing.





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[Little Jay]

My Japanese ES-175 copy branded 'Condor' has the exact same construction!

Moreover, doesn't even have the rims (kerfed or solid) that are normally used to reinforce the glue-connections of the sides to the top and the back. Your's doesn't either so to see.

I am guessing your D'Agostino and my Condor are from the same Japanese factory.

[Little Jay]

Oh and yes, most Ibanez guitar do have parallel bracing and kerfed rims!

[GNAPPI]

I have an archtop copy of a Howard Roberts without braces or a soundpost. Thinking it was really odd, I wrote a luthier who does repairs and he said it wasn't as unusual as I thought it was.

[rio]

Oh and yes, most Ibanez guitar do have parallel bracing and kerfed rims!

Would that indicate that my guitar was not, in fact, made alongside Ibanez lawsuits in the same factory? They guy who sold it to me had a pretty convincing history for it but he also might have told me that because I came in looking for a '70's Ibanez.


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[sgosnell]

Please say it ain't so! How could it be possible that a seller would misrepresent a guitar to a buyer?

[A440]

Here's my Japanese ES175, a Westone Session II. Different sound post, but same construction (no bracing).

[goldenwave77]

Curious about this. What is the neck made from?

Is there any consensus/rule of thumb about this? I think later Ibanezes went to the maple neck, rather than mahogany.

[icr]

In my book, the construction techniques the are pictured temper my enthusiasm for SOME of the Japanese 'copy' guitars of the 1970s and 1980s. Yes they look like the real thing from the outside, but they are not made the same.

Other examples similar to above are the cheaper Ibanez Les Paul copies of the 1970. The cheaper ones had a curved piece of veneer over a flat top. They were actually hollow on top when you tapped them.

The other end of the spectrum are the true carved top Ibanez guitars. Yes, at the same time Ibanez made both the cheaper ones and the "good" ones. Us collectors and players need to seek out the 'good' ones.

In the posted Ibanez catalog scans, note the two forms of top construction available at the same time. Either solid or laminate. The Les Paul style with "Arched curly maple top" is a arched laminate over a solid top. It is hollow when you tap it.
Also note the difference between the 2470 and 2460.

[rio]

It is a maple neck. Even though the construction is different I am happy with guitar and not regretting having it. I'll have to record it again (I actually need to record something tonight or tomorrow anyway so I'll use this guitar) because the only example I have is from practicing a chord melody and 1) it was not set up to get the best sound I could get and 2) it was just with my phone but here is an older recording with it since it is all I have.

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[goldenwave77]

OK, curious.

My '78 Aria Pro II, EA-650 has the sound block post, and no braces, but it is definitely a mahogany neck.

I think it gets about 90% of the 175 sound...maybe a touch more compressed tonally, and volume wise, but definite thunk and chime.

PS: Just checked out your sound clip. I think that guitar sounds good. Maybe slightly brighter and thinner. Put it in a combo setting, or even played using a backing track, and I doubt most people could tell the difference.

As I've written before, I think all these instruments sound, and come through very differently, in a mix.

[Little Jay]

Would that indicate that my guitar was not, in fact, made alongside Ibanez lawsuits in the same factory? They guy who sold it to me had a pretty convincing history for it but he also might have told me that because I came in looking for a '70's Ibanez.


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Well…. I think Ibanez guitars were also manufactured by different factories. There was no Ibanez factory, they were sourced out as well. I have seen ‘law suit’ Ibanez 175 copies with maple necks and slightly different body shapes alongside the more wanted models with mahogany necks and bracing that are much closer in materials and construction to the 175 they copied. Maybe it was matter of pricing how close the copy was to the original. The lower budget models have the cheaper construction.

So the seller wasn’t necessarily lying, your D’Agostino could well be produced by a factory that also fabricated guitars Ibanez.

Oh, by the way, to make things worse: my Condor came with pickups that looked like humbuckers, but there was only a single coil under the cover It does have a mahogany-type wood for the neck though, but mahogany comes in a lot of varieties. It’s almost certainly not Honduras mahogany like Gibson used at that time.

[Little Jay]

Ok since it's saturday, the grocery shopping is done and my daughter is quietly playing on my ipad I had some time for some quick iphone recordings:

Condor ES-175 (currently with a Burstbucker #1 pickup):

And my ES-125 as a reference (same amp, same settings,even same pick):

Recording picked up a lot of the acoustic sound too, I think. Oh and I noticed how worn the frets of the Condor are....

[rio]

I am in the study group for one of the threads in the improv forum and recorded something with the D'Agostino and since it is single notes and I have the guitar where I am pleased with the sound now I thought I would share it here. How do you think it compares to a "real" ES-175? I've never had one and only played one once and although I have heard a ton of recordings with them I am curious about the sound comparison given the difference in the build (maple neck, no bracing, soundpost etc.). This was recorded right next to the speaker so I could have done a better job I think getting it closer to the way the guitar sounds in the room but it is something at least.

Edit: I should also add that these are the original pickups so I wonder what would happen if I put in a Burstbucker. I had a Burstbucker in my Tele and was thrilled with the sound, but if it ain't broke don't fix it - I am not unhappy with the sound at all but I wonder if it would get closer to a 175 sound if it is lacking.

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[Ol' Fret]

See post #16 Just got my '65 Kessel back from being "repaired"

The construction of any archtop guitar scheduled for mere electric application, where the sound comes from the pickups for the most part, is not overly critical.

[rio]

Thanks for that link - very interesting. I have not seen a Barney Kessell lawsuit guitar before.


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[goldenwave77]

I think for single line playing, that guitar sounds very good, and very close to a lot of 175's acc'd to my ear. I bet a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell in a blindfold test.

The chordal stuff is the real test. I think most times the copies might sound a little boomy, and/or a little shrill when doing this kind of thing.

[entresz]

My Greco 175 copy has the kerfed rims and parallel bracing ; the bracing isn't kerfed though.
Main difference is the top of mine is laminated spruce, not maple. Would have some effect on the tone I'm sure. It still sounds like a 175 to my ears, 'bouncy' sounding.

My vol/tone controls are a bit funky too ; rolling off the tone also kills a lot of volume. It's a nice sounding guitar, but I think I will replace the neck pickup with a humbucker-sized CC pickup.

[Little Jay]

My vol/tone controls are a bit funky too ; rolling off the tone also kills a lot of volume.

Must be wired fifties way then. My ES125 does that too, I am used to it and even prefer it now to find the 'sweet spot' on every volume level.