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03-04-2017, 11:28 AM #1Dutchbopper Guest
Since 60s L5s are unaffordable. How about 70s L5s? What are the years to avoid? The late 70s come to mind. I understand most (all?) 70s L5s have plain woods but that does not mean much tone wise right? What is the difference between early, mid and late 70s L5 models? Did the specs change over the years? Were the backs ever carved in that era? When did the real sloppiness set in?
Maybe Jack can chime in. He owned a bunch. But maybe others too? I got rid of my FB page so I can't message him anymore.
Regards,
DB
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03-04-2017 11:28 AM
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I have a 1970 L5 and it is awesome. Russel Malone has a Norlin era L5 but I don't know what year it is. I was able to try mine before getting it but I had heard that they were still pretty consistent in '70 - I might have gotten it without trying it (maybe) but later years I would want to try it first for sure to see if it was a good one.
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I'll be honest, I've played quite a few Norlin era Gibsons, and some were great guitars (although I haven't played a Norlin L5) so I'm not sure I could say there's any true "avoid years...
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Jimmy D'Aquisto always told me that non flamed maple sounded better but customers demanded the flamed.
I had a 1977 Byrdland, 1978 Super 400, and a 1979 JS. The build quality was superb and they all sounded beautiful with not a spec of flame and the only drawback being the zero frets but a fret job made them perfect.
As Jack as stated they were lighter in weight back then. I think they carved them better in those days too.
People bash the Norlin years but I had some really nice Norlins.
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DB:
Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
I have a 1976 L5CESN and it's a great guitar. I used to have a '78 but I think I like the '76 a little better (partly because it doesn't have a volute). I also have a couple of older L5's and a recent one for comparison and the '76 holds its own with the others. It has been my main gigging guitar for a few years. I feel that the early to mid-seventies L5's have some good things going for them. This is after Gibson returned to solid backs and a 1 11/16" nut, but before they added the volute. They have good humbuckers and they were still made in Kalamazoo. They can be had for much less than older L5's and usually a little less than recent ones. The only downside is the plain back and sides, but to me that's not a big deal.
Keith
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I would be more concerned about 70's era Fenders which were victimized by CBS's cost cutting measures such as the 3-bolt neck!
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I agree that 70-76 L-5's are better because of the lack of a volute. Also at some point the lacquer changed as well. The 65-early 69 examples have a less than 1 11/16 nut along with some laminated backs. While the best are the 57-64 examples, the prices for those are off the charts. Late 69 through 76 will give a fine guitar for less than a used late model example which are more heavily built.
Each guitar should be considered on its own merits. There are good, great and not so good examples in every year.
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The volute was never a issue for me though I can see it might be for some depending on if you are a big thumb user for the low E and play a lot of 1st fret stuff. The idea behind it was good hoping to strengthen the 17 degree headstock.
I must admit I prefer the look of the black stinger on the back of the headstock. They still put volutes on Citations.
For me the volute is not a deal breaker but a 1-9/16 nut would be. LOL.
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I wonder what exactly makes the volutes so undesirable. I have a '79 ES335 with a volute which i bought in 1980 and last summer i bought a 76 Johnny Smith with a volute which doesn't disturb me at all. I actually feel that the JS has a kind of "rarity vibe" because of that.
Is it just that the market price is lower which irritates people or does anyone actually get physically irritated when playing a neck with a volute?
To Dutchbopper: i played a 1970L5CES as my main guitar for a decade and liked it a lot because of its even response and fat high register. It certainly sounded better than the two late sixties L5's with florentine cutaway of which i owned one and just tried the other. A year ago i thought it didn't sound as good as my 2003 L5CES does. Maybe i should compare them again..Last edited by JazzNote; 03-04-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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When I had my 1978 L5, I never really gave the volute any thought. In fact, I t seemed like a good thing, as it added strength to that vulnerable part of the guitar. Over time, I began to realize that volutes had a stigma, because of the opinions of others. Having said that, I think my '76 (with its stinger) looks more traditional. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Keith
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Joshua Breakstone plays an early 70s L5ces
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Note that Jack Z bought and returned the 1971 L5CES that is currently for sale at Sam Ash NYC. So, it could not pass the Zucker Stress Test.
Bruce Forman plays one from 1970, if I am not mistaken. It has no volute.
Time does wonderful things to musical instruments of wood. Whatever the flaws of the 70s Norlins in the 1970s, they are over 40 years old today. There is nothing like old wood and I believe it is time to give them serious evaluation. They may just be coming on song.
Played plugged in as they are meant to be, they have a tonal palette of their own. It saddens me that so many have been stripped of their Sealfasts because ""they are worth more parted out".
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What I don t like about the Norlin Archtops is the look of the sunburst finish. I somewhere read the description "toilet seat", which somehow hits the point. But with a blonde/natural finish there are some great Norlin Archtops. I just played an Super 400 from that time. Very good sounding but very low frets too
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I've had an early 70s L5 for about five years now and it's still rules the roost. Yeah the finish is a little blotchy but I can live with that; flame?
never played any earlier models so i can't compare but this has a very well rounded tone and no structural issues.
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I believe that the anti-volute stigma IS mainly opinion.
I own, and relish my '81 Norlin L5 CES. Yes, it has a volute. No, I do not even know it is there.
The back and the front are carved out on the inside, and great pickups, strong.
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A volute on my 73 Les Paul saved me some neck integrity after a strap-slip. Never had a volute interfere with my playing.
I'm not a big believer in the good-years/bad-years debate. I think every year produces gems and stinkers on a roughly equal basis.
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I agree. I had a couple excellent Norlin guitars with volutes and they didn't bother me in terms of playing. The only thing that bothered me was hearing others saying negative things about volutes, which I felt had some impact on the value of those guitars. Interestingly, Mark Campellone's guitars have volutes and I never hear any mention of that. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
Keith
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I had a '73 back a few decades, and it was a very mediocre instrument given its place in the lineup. I sold it for a '63 Byrdland.
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No i didn't.
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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The handful of 60s Gibson archtops I've encountered did not impress me ....
thin necks, narrow nuts, and thin tone is what I remember ... definitely an era to play before you pay in my opinion
My limited experience with 70s Norlins Gibson archtops is that they can be excellent guitars on average .... just not as eye catching with plain maple backs and sides ..... there's a '76 Super 400 in Austin, Texas that I would like to add to my collection if my finances ever allow it
if the volute doesn't bother you, you can get you a nice guitar for less than pre 70s prices ... even the used ones from the last thirty years can cost more due to fancier woods and a relatively good reputation for modern Gibsons
and unlike Les Pauls and 335s, Gibson's high end archtops had multiple piece necks from day one so that complaint about Norlin era guitars doesn't really fly with these guitars
As always there are good guitars in all eras .... and your tastes may not be the same as mine anyways
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......A Volute ??
If you're considering a Norlin L-5 vs another era, and that is the only thing you are able to find wrong, meaning everything else is correct - don't worry about it !
It'd be like looking at a new home, and you liked everything about it - -everything - - except the mailbox.
MHO
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Originally Posted by Dennis D
Yup .. agreed ...
But then there are some pretty ugly mailboxes out there
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I've owned a couple from the 70s, neither was anywhere near as good as my 60s models.
that being said, one was a minty closet queen and the other had a neck that was mounted slightly off and the string tension kept wanting to pull the bridge to the side so not surprised they weren't great sounding.
but as others here have stated, I can't imagine that there aren't good ones and dogs from all eras, construction didn't change all that much from the 60s to the 70s aside from the cutaway, though some prefer the 60s pickupsLast edited by wintermoon; 03-06-2017 at 06:31 PM.
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The instruments that significantly contribute to poor perception from Norlin period are mainly LesPauls. There are many posts about this topic.
While the use of plain woods and volutes on Archtops may be perceived as a negative , I believe it's merely a byproduct from people just spreading what they hear- without first hand knowledge. There are good and bad instruments from any period.
I leveraged all that bad perception to my advantage last year and purchased a near mint Johnny Smith for a very attractive price.
Ok - so it had plain wood and
the volute - the later of which is present on Citations - and it was a non issue for me. In fact - I think the volute may even contribute to the tone due to the extra mass - and it's functionally irrelevant to me.
That guitar is now in the possession of a forum member and I would gladly buy it back from him in a minute- it's the nicest sounding Johnny Smith that I played during the course of 6 months of sampling from each period.
Norlin period Archtops provide us with an opportunity to score a great guitar at an attractive price .
Just do your research and pay street prices - forget retail numbers - they are fantasy.
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I have owned several Norlin era guitars with the volute, 4 Les Pauls and 1 ES-175 to be exact. I did not mind the small volute on the Les Pauls at all. The Volute on my 1977 ES-175 was ugly to my eyes (It was much bigger than the Volutes on the Les Pauls in relation to the necks). I currently own an Ibanez AF-207 that has a volute. Compared to my non volute Ibanez JP-20, it does not look as good to me, but it is a great guitar and I would not let the volute stop me from keeping it in my collection. I love the look of the Martin volute, but am not a fan of the Gibson volute. It is purely a matter of taste.
That said, no volute has ever been a hindrance to my playing. I had two late 60's Gibsons with the 1 9/16 nut and that DID affect my playing (I have no problems with 1 5/8, but for some reason 1 9/16 makes first position jazz chords tricky for me)
I would most certainly choose a mid 70's Gibson with the volute over a late 60's Gibson with the 1 9/16 nut. All day long.
Every 70's Gibson that I have owned (with or without the volute) has been an excellent guitar. I cannot say that about the 70's Fender guitars that I have owned. I had two late 70's Fender Strats that were simply lousy guitars (terrible workmanship and heavy enough to create work for a team of chiropractors).
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