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Gentlemen, with all the discussions going on about comparing the Epiphone ES175 Premium to a "real" ES175 etc, this afternoon I decided to record the identical music on the Gibson ES175 VOS1959, the Epiphone ES175 Premium, and the Gibson ES165 Herb Ellis (older model).
FYI the music is a Jimmy Raney solo based on "Just Friends" from the Aebersold Vol. 20 Play-a-Long. Some of us in a study group have been learning some of these solos.
There are clams and mistakes in the playing, but I hope the comparison of the 3 instruments is helpful.
In such a comparison, the signal-chain is relevant. On each guitar, volume is set at 7, tone at 10. Played through a Polytone Baby Brute, with pretty much flat EQ, mic'd with a Shure SM57 into a Presonus Audiobox iTwo, and from thence via USB to my iPhone 6. I punched up the guitar volume a tad over the backing track in mastering the clip, but added no EQ or effects. The guitar is isolated in the R channel if you just want to hear that.
All mistakes, and they are many, are my own doing...
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01-16-2017 07:03 PM
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I'd say the 2 Gibsons sound a little fuller and richer. A little more complexity. More difference in the lower range and mid-range, than at the upper end.
But I would say the Epiphone is 90 to 95% there. With a little EQ, might even be something beyond hearing. Definitely a lot of bang for the buck.
It's been said that lower price guitars are vastly better now, than they were 30-40-50 yrs. ago. I think this shows that pretty well.
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Wow, Damn it! That Epi sounds great. And they are selling them in black for less than $500. I absolutely have NO USE for one, and I just can't seem to fight the urge to buy one. Must be strong...
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I am really digging the 165 tone, but they are ALL great-sounding. Nice playing!
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Nice demo, Lawson! All three guitars sound just so fine. I also give the edge to the two Gibsons, but the difference is very small, and largely attributable to the relative youth of the Epi, IMHO. Were I in the market for a new electric archtop, the Epi would be at the top of the list. Thanks for this useful comparison!
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I like the 165 the best, the 59RI almost as well and the Epi the least (it has a "shrill" quality to my ears). Your playing is just fine throughout. What clams?
Great comparison. While the Epi is my least favorite, it has the best bang for the buck for sure and is a perfectly serviceable jazz guitar sound. Perhaps a worthwhile guitar for outdoor, direct sunlight gigs?
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I didn't think I would like the Epi, but it was much better in your hands than the one I tried in a local GC. Goes to show you it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian :-)
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Thanks Lawson for doing the demo video. My Epi Premium has no "shrill." I actually preferred it's tone to the '175, which was a bit muffled by comparison. One has to demo a guitar on their own gear to experience its capability, and preferably over days, in my experience...ymmv. $500 for the Epi is a no brainer...We all can find a use for that guitar
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Thanks, Lawson. 3 guitars on my radar.
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The Epi is brighter, no doubt. But changing the TOM for a wooden bridge makes a big difference in that, for very little money. I bought one from Stew-Mac for ~$20, took < 5 minutes to install it, and the difference in tone was obvious. The TOM I removed lives in a drawer, never to see the light of day again unless I sell the Epi, and since it was a gift from my children, that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
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They all sound great IMO.
I think the Herb Ellis has a slightly better tone, but also, I don't think that's a big deal.
It's an older guitar, and I'm guessing you could make each guitar sound even more identical with some careful EQ settings.
I think it's quite an achievement for an Epiphone to get so close to a Gibson in sound quality.
And you know these newer guitars will also sound better with age.
So you have a $4,000 guitar vs a $2,000 guitar vs a $500-$800 guitar . . . all sounding good.
No losers in this battle
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Well put. Agree completely.
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
I think it's quite an achievement for an Epiphone to get so close to a Gibson in sound quality.
So you have a $4,000 guitar vs a $2,000 guitar vs a $500-$800 guitar . . . all sounding good.
No losers in this battle
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I have now thought about playing with tone and EQ to find each guitar's sweet spot but that's a bit more work. I'm fascinated that the Gibson and Epi 175 have the same pickup (Classic 57) but definite sound different.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I am currently having a very hard time resisting the GC "clearance" on the ebony model for sub $500. It fills a gap in my archtop lineup that I would love to fill. But I just spent $1500 on books and supplies for nursing school and I need a new couch and have 2 small children who need things and I don't make all that much money and well, I just don't think it's in the stars. Responsibilities are a bitch sometimes.
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Amazing bang for the buck, that Epiphone ES-175. With a little finagling of strings, and perhaps proper pots and pups, it will be there.
You get props for merely having the awesome stones to put up a demo of your playing. There is nothing to apologise for. I enjoyed it.
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Great job Lawson!
First of all: nice playing here! That study group seems to be going extremely well!
for me the favorite of the bunch was the ES 165. It had the richest and most mellow sound of them. But by and large they were all in the ballpark and the EPI was not really falling behind the Gibby's. I guess it then depends on feel.
I once had a Gibsoon and an Epi ES 175 (but that was before the Epi premium came out). The Epi was really not bad sounding at all and it also played well after a setup. However, it felt so heavy and bulky and that poly finish and plastic nut somehow was a turnoff for me. I ended up selling the Epi (for a joke) and kept the Gibson.
This is all superficial .... at the end of the day one gets the vibe and tone of the Gibson at a small fraction of the cost. It is true that the entry level archtops can be amazing value these days.
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Hey Elle Ess. Man you've got big hands! All the better for playing nifty licks!
I love the tone of the 165. Somewhere in the middle with the Gibbo is dark and the Eppo light and lively.
If I were to go for one of those three it would be the 165.
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Listening on my iPhone I preferred the 175, but the differences are minimal, probably unnoticeable in a band-context?
Great job!
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Well done & thank you.
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The Epi is loudest, followed by the 175, then the 165. That makes me think that differences in pickup height account for a fair amount of the differences in tone (which are pretty subtle), and that they could be matched even more closely with a bit of tweakage. Anyway, this confirms my limited experience from trying a couple of Epis that they're 175s for practical purposes. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
John
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You know that's one variable I did not really think about. I've tweaked each guitar's pickup height and pole pieces but didn't think to make those uniform.
I will check on those to see how much they differ, just for fun. Playing all three guitars pretty frequently, I still think the Epiphone is more trebly, but that's odd because the pickups are identical to the 1959VOS ES175, Classic 57s. I think they are also both about the same weight, whatever that means. The Gibson is a Mahogany back and neck, and the Epiphone is maple, which might make some difference, though normally I've heard maple is supposed to be "darker."
It was a fun experiment, to say the least. I'm thinking now of doing the same with my L5ces clones and then my archtops with floaters.
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The reverse. Maple is very heavy, and dense, whereas Mahogany is softer and more porous. All those short, high frequency sound waves (the treble stuff) transmit better through maple. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Maple-necked tele is the classic twang machine.Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-17-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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Lawson, AFAIK, with the exception of the Hog backed 175's of the 80's, all other 175's have a maple back. Also the Epi website claims that the Epi 175 premium has a Hog neck, not maple.
Listening to your clips, there is no doubt that the Epi is brighter, even with the same PUPS. It could be the pots, wiring bridge, woods, glues or even the setup. Keep in mind that two Gibson 175's from the same year can sound quite different (every piece of wood is different). I suspect that I might like the tone of the Epi with a wooden bridge saddle better. I sure do not like the idea of a pinned bridge though. With a wood bridge saddle, it is nice to be able to move the bridge ever so slightly to dial in intonation.
Your video does prove that you pay four times as much for only about ten percent improvement in sound. The law of diminishing returns strikes again!Last edited by Stringswinger; 01-17-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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I liked them all. There was a little shrillness to the top end of the Epiphone, but nothing that bothered me too much. I'd be happy with that tone any day of the week.
I liked the 165 best, actually. I feel like your playing was cleanest on the 165 too, but that might have just been because you were fully warmed up by then and had little to do with the guitar. Nice pickin!'
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I also think the 165 certainly has the most distinctive tone. I really, really love the tone of that guitar, but it is a very focused and persistent tone. You can monkey with the tone control or EQ all day long and it will end up sounding pretty much the same. It's actually a lot like the Gibson Joe Pass was playing at the end of his life. Thick and round, but with just a bit of bite if you picked it a certain way. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I imagine it's a combination of the 490R pickup (big factor) and the heavier body. The 165 is quite a bit heavier than the 1959 VOS ES175 or Epiphone.
I need to slip a wood bridge on the Epiphone just to see what happens.
I should also say--and it's not a put-down of the Epiphone--playing all three of these guitars, typically seriatim, a lot, has reinforced my feeling that Gibson's have some kind of additional element of "solid" feel that the Epi doesn't have. The Epi is great, it's not a negative, but the two Gibsons just feel like... forever. I get the same vibe from my two L5ces clones, the Epiphone Elitist Broadway and the Aria Pro II PE180. Those two guitars really have that solid, Rock of Gibraltar feeling. You pick them up and think, "If I can't sound good on this guitar, I'm just pathetic."
That said, I would enthusiastically recommend the Epiphone ES175 Premium to anyone wanting the 175 experience on a budget.
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