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A counter example to the correlation between guitar sounding good unplugged vs guitar sounding good plugged is ES 335 (or any semi-hollow body guitar for that matter). I think they have the worst unplugged sound (worse than solid bodies in general), yet they sound great plugged in.
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06-08-2018 12:30 PM
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In doing comparisons, it makes sense to use the same signal chain and settings.
But, I'm also curious about how they would all sound with the settings adjusted to get "your" sound. That is, the best settings to your ear for each guitar.
I thought the Epi was a little bright. I wondered if that just required a tweak of the tone control. It seemed like that might be all it needed to tame the brightness (if that's what somebody wanted the guitar to sound like), but, at the same time, a brighter tone would be available when you needed it.
I thought they all sounded good.
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You can still hear the essential tone of a solid body (which a 335 is essentially) acoustically. Of course it won’t perform well as an acoustic and acoustic volume is not an indicator of expecting a good electric sound but a good tone unplugged is almost essential to have a good plugged in sound if we are taking about a not heavily processed traditional jazz guitar plugged straight into an amp. A guitar that has a tone you don’t like acoustically is going to retain that sound when you amplify it.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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A friend of mine mic'd his 335 and it sounded amazing. Again, loudness is an important consideration. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I agree with this with one caveat. If you listen closely even though quiet (ie GB10) the sound is there acoustically just quiet. I personally have to get acquainted with a guitar acoustically first. Originally Posted by jzucker
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When comparing the more affordable imported versions of Gibsons, it's important to remember that the actual feel of the guitar as well as the recorded sound is just as important, at least to me.
This is why I'm willing to pay extra for the correct feel,asthetic, build, and details like proper neck angle,etc. If I were strictly utilitarian the cheaper import would win every time from an economic stand point. Since it gives you at least 90% of the original design guitars abilities,especially sound wise.
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Agreed. I was in guitar center yesterday and had a chance to sit down with the epi premiere 175 as well as the d'angelico 335 style guitar. Neither felt like or sounded like professional quality guitars IMO...But the feel of the gibson 175 is vastly superior to the epi.
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I agree with that as well. I never said or intended to imply that the Epiphone was interchangeable with the Gibson. I was only comparing the sound under certain limited conditions. Originally Posted by jzucker
That said, some might like the feel of the Epiphone's neck. I enjoy playing it, even though I vastly prefer my Gibsons. But someone getting the Epiphone ES175 Premium, especially discounted, will be doing very well for a solid 16" laminated archtop. When they step up to a Gibson or other professional grade instrument, the Epi likely will stay in their collection. It grows on you in a peculiar way.
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That is exactly what is happening with me right now. Since getting my EPI ES175 Premium, I've bought a slew of Gibson ES models now including an ES-175 '54 Reissue. But I'm not yet willing to kick the EPI to the curb. Must be that peculiar growth! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Last edited by wmachine; 06-11-2018 at 09:02 PM.
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With all the limitations that obviously come into play with a budget instrument, the Epi ES175 Premium is the most bang for the buck I've seen in a long long time. No it's not a Gibson, but it still punches way above its weight and class. Originally Posted by wmachine
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Superb video thanks. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I think had the vol of the epi been the same as the others it would have been closer in tone.
A blind test would have put the cat amongst the pigeons.
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I posted some months ago that I liked all the guitars compared in the video. None were less than great.
I own several hollowbodies: Epi ES-175P, Ibanez LGB30, Ibanez AF155, and others. My fave is def the LGB30; it was fantastic when I first bought it and I recently upgraded the Chinese Super 58 Custom pups to a brand new, straight from Hoshino/Ibanez, set of high-end Japanese Super 58s, same as the pups in the Metheny and Benson Made in Japan Prestige jazz boxes. Wow! Immediately I could hear the difference - and I always thought the Chinese Super 58s were awesome. I also installed a wood bridge from StewMac, heavy flats and some Gotoh locking tuners. This guitar sings and feels great to play. The body is not as deep as my Epi ES-175P, and that makes it more comfortable to play.
(Quick side note: I installed the Chinese S58s from my LGB30 into my new Olive Metallic Ibby AS73 - sounds pretty good! I bought it only because of the color - it's such a cool green!).
Regarding my Epi 175P, I'll try to be brief. I bought my first one about 2 years ago, then sold it because I thought I had too many jazz boxes (I did), then I realized I really missed it after playing a Gibson 175 at GC. So I ordered another Epi 175P through Reverb - a refurbished model. When it arrived I had a set of flats waiting to be installed. As I always do, I inspected and had a look at the backs of the pups. They were NOT Gibson, they were Altec and sounded muddy. I was sick. I emailed the seller and he was very agreeable to a return and refund. Did that asap. He said he didn't know. Whatever. I saw others on Reverb and asked the sellers to please send me photos of the backs of the pups, or I wasn't going to buy. Only one sent me photos. They were authentic Gibsons. I purchased the guitar and still have it.
Now, about the sound. It's great! I replaced the TOM bridge with a wood bridge and restrung it with 12 gauge flats. Sounded kinda thumpy to me. I then watched a YouTube video of Joni Mitchell's "Shadows and Light" concert w/ Metheny (and Jaco!). Metheny played his 175 - he used a TOM bridge (and duct tape and I think a toothbrush). I then returned the TOM bridge to the guitar and installed D'Adarrio half-rounds, 12 gauge. Bingo! That's my sound! Love this combination. I also lowered the neck pickup more that usual. This guitar is definitely a keeper. The pickups are as Lawson's, 57 Classic in the neck and 57+ in the bridge. I usually play with only the neck pup anyways.
Regarding the three comparisons, upon revisiting the video, I actually prefer the brighter sound of the Epiphone 175P. I dial back the tone on the guitar and the treble on the amp and it sounds great to me. If I want a warmer, smoother tone, the LGB30 w/ Japanese Super 58s is the best I've ever heard. So warm and crisp and clear. Regarding the Ibanez AF155 w/ Chinese Super 58 Customs, I recently purchased a set of Japanese Super 58s (yes, another set, but this set is used), and will probably install them into that jazz box. I've also considered some Seth Lovers. Still undecided.
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I don’t think one would go wrong with an Epiphone 175 in the future. I am afraid that Gibson 175s are getting less accessible these days because of their price. The Gibson 175 supposed to be the working man’s guitar, the cheap alternative to an L5. Today, an average Gibson 175 is almost as expensive as an L5 used to be, average price being 5k or above. Nowadays an L5 is 7k and above. Gibson archtop days are long gone.
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Well done demo anyway!
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Just ran across this, Ive had a 175 for 49+yrs (my only for 44) 1st thanks to the OP for the time and trouble and one of the most thoughtful comparisons I ve read. My take is that if you couldn't mitigate the small tonal differences between these with pick, tone control, strings, amp settings, amp location etc...well Id be surprised. to me the most important item would be the neck fit to my hand. From what I heard, as soon as you played one by itself youd forget about the others. They all had 175ness. Great thread, thanks to Lawson
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can’t happen Originally Posted by sgosnell
BTooth has latency ….
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With the newest Bluetooth version it's less, yes, still present. Years ago when this thread was still alive the latency was unbearable. I haven't tried to use my Pixel Buds Pro with an amp.
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Actually the stand-out to my ear was the ES165 Herb Ellis. The 490 pickup gives it just a little more "snarl" or something that I don't hear in the C57's. The neck on the Epiphone is the typically Epiphone slim neck, and while so far I haven''t had problems with variations in neck thickness, I can see how a little stiffness or arthritis in my hands would make me want the Epiphone neck. Originally Posted by Rickco
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Surprisingly on your clip, I find the sound of the Gibson ES 165 superior to the Gibson ES 175. Fuller kind of. I don't know if it is the TOM bridge vs the wooden one. I would like to hear how the Epi would sound with a wooden bridge. My 165 at least sounds more mellow with a wooden bridge, less bite or so. Especially with flats. TOM bridge adds more treble. I don't really like the TOM bridge on any jazz box, kind of kills the way they were supposed to be in the first place. TOM is more a semi hollow thing IMO. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I think it's the fact that the top just has more wood to vibrate. No pickup cut out near the bridge. Every archtop I have that has just one pickup has that characteristic, just a little "more" something. The suppression of the top by the bridge pickup cutout likely also is where the classical "thunk" of the ES175 comes from, at least partly. Originally Posted by Epistrophy
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I would add that I carefully adjusted and matched the volumes level of each track playing back through a mastering system and the differences became even smaller. Id also like to point out that what made the 175 so popular was its ability to change its character especially the "D" you can cover big band to country to rock blues etc making the value for the working player perfect. Im an old retired player but in "the day" many players only had 1 box....a 175 and back then we really didnt care what year or even know what a PAF was.
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Good point. I like the single pickup version. Bridge pickup is not that necessary, I don’t see much use with it when playing jazz. Maybe for some who are after that “thunk”, may like the second pu.
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It's not actually the use of the bridge pickup, just the fact that you have this damper like presence of that pickup limiting the resonance of the top. Just my theory, of course. Originally Posted by Epistrophy
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