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Of small, affordable amps. I was at jazz camp this past week, and one of the guys was playing thru one of those new Fender Champ 600 tube amps. 5 watts 6v6 power. He had replaced the 12AX7 preamp tube with a different one that had higher headroom, to reduce earlier breakup.
There was 5 electric guitars, a drummer and upright bass in the room, and this little baby sounded great. Very warm and surprisingly loud. With a 6" speaker, there was some obvious bass response missing, but for just under $150, I was really surprised.
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08-03-2009 12:52 PM
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Owned one for about a week, sold it. Didn't cut the mustard, IMO. Ditto for the Epiphone Valve Jr.
IMO if ya want a good-sounding small tube amp for relatively few bucks, get something like a silverface Fender Champ, a Gibson Skylark or any number of Danelectro/Silvertone/Supro/Harmony low-wattage combos.
One critical aspect is tube rectifier vs. solid state rectifier. Tube rectifiers creates 'sag', that lovely, subtle, 'organic' compression characteristic of tube rectifiers.
Which is part of why I LOVE the Roland Micro-Cube, WHEN RUN ON BATTERIES: battery-powered amps also have sag. The Micro-Cube sounds like two different amps to my ears, depending on whether powered by wall-juice or batteries. Wall-powered: okay solid-state amp. Battery-powered: superb solid-state amp. Mine is ALWAYS used with batteries.
Warning: some of the older 'sears catalog' low-wattage tube amps sound GREAT, often having sweet old Jensen speakers, but be careful--many use variants of the notorious 'all-american' circuit-design, which, should a short occur, can easily electrocute a player. If you get one, have an isolation transformer added, as well as a three-prong grounded power cord, to prevent getting french-fried. I had a little Harmony amp of that design that was SO sweet--a really great amp for recording or low-volume situations--but I had the requisite transformer & grounded-power-cable mods done to it.
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thanks for pointing out the importance of the isolation transformer.
I let too many of these amps slide on past for this reason tho. For the price of the amp PLUS the work to make it safe and reliable I can build a Champ clone and have enough left over to do a decent job of it.
The upside is that sometimes you find these amps at yardsales and flea markets for close to the price of a set of TI Strings.. it just hasnt happened to me yet.
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Sure--I know about the upside. This area is a longtime antiques-hunter destination, thus having lots of antique-oriented flea markets/shops/wheeling & dealing. So I regularly find such old-school low-watt tube amps at low cost.
Originally Posted by dh82c
On the other hand, due to the 'vintage instrument' market--or is that 'vintage instrument craze'? Or 'vintage instrument fetish'?--I usually yield to temptation and re-sell such finds for a profit.
My faves are older, small dano & harmony amps. Some are the essence of sweet and warm, also lightweight due to thinner-wood cabinetry--REAL wood, which benefits the sound, as opposed to the particle board used in many contemporary amps. Particle Board is the Dreaded Lead Weight of amp-building materials, and screwholes in the stuff crumble into useless voids pretty quick.
I've been fooling around with driving other speakers with the Micro-Cube amp. The M-cube's 3 watts into an 8" 4-ohm bass speaker (salvaged from an old Crate amp) in a pine cabinet sound lovely and MUCH louder. The whole package, including amp, still weighs in at less than 10 pounds.
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Cut what mustard? A gig with a band? I was speaking about home practice or perhaps a solo gig where there isn't much volume needed. For less than $150 and a very small, light package, not sure what you expect out of 5 watts. Originally Posted by janepaints
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I like the champ 600 for practice but out of the box it is pretty underwhelming. Better tubes help. I replaced the speaker with an older 8in Alnico and that made the biggest different. I have read that the stock 6in is not too bad once broken in (but pretty painfull until that time). I like the 8 better. It is great into a 10in Ceramic RSC but I dont like using an external cab.
I also hear it is a good idea to use better quality grill cloth but I havent confirmed this either.
Having said that.. I encourage people not to like the amp so that they can sell it to me!
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What mustard? Originally Posted by derek
--Daily recording
--Daily practicing
--Frequent low-volume gigs/jamming
My dislike of the Champ 600 was 100% due to how it sounded. Tried plenty of different tubes in it. Tried assorted pedals upfront. Tried it with a variety of guitars. Ran it through separate speakers & cabinets. Listened to it via ear and via recordings (using studio-grade headphones & monitor speakers)
Spent a solid week doing that kinda stuff. Then sold it via Craigs-list.
Nothing about it gave me the chillbumps, and 'getting the chillbumps' is why I choose/keep/use any piece of gear.
It's not DREADFUL sounding, and yes it's inexpensive and weighs little. I love its looks--very nicely styled. I'd give it a '10' in looks & weight.
If I hadn't 40+ years of experience with many similar amps which DID provide 'the chillbumps', I probably woulda liked it more.
Something which puzzles me about gear in general: Many companies, Fender certainly included, have long-proven 'winner' designs which they've let lapse. Sure, contemporary pricepoint/construction/material considerations differ from in the 60's/70's/80's, but why cobble-up 'retro' products which DON'T actually sound or perform like the 'classic retro' gear whose qualities & reputation they exploit (and CLAIM to replicate)?
In other words, why not just keep making & marketing silverface Champs? Or the original Champion 600? I'd prefer a silverface Champ--even with a particle-board cab & needs-upgrading speaker--to a lesser-quality circuit board-construction amp in such housing.
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In all fairness I forgot to mention that I bypass the tone stack on the 600 so it resembles a tweed era circuit. The stock design is very similar to a bf champ with bass and treble hardwired at 6.
For the price they are great little amps but you have to put the time in to get them to your liking. Obviously it isnt everyones cup of tea. You sound like you gave the amp a good going over which is more than fair.
Fender were very late on the bandwagon with their new 57 Champ. Nice amp to be sure but for 1000$ you can buy any number of clones and have change to spare. You do NOT get the Fender name (and associated resale value). Even then.. for that price you can buy a Swart SE which sounds nothing like a champ and eveything like a champ at the same time and WILL keep its resale value.
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Fair enough. As to the SF Champ, it is very easy to get a kit or there are a number of small builders who will do a better job at putting one together (better parts) than Fender ever did. Originally Posted by janepaints
Goosebumps is an interesting litmus test. I must say that I am not sure an amp has ever done that to me, but I can think of a couple that have come close.
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.. the aforementioned Swart SE is the gold standard for but I have never cranked a topnotch champ (tweed or otherwise) before.
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Ah,
1) eating crow
and
2) each-item-is-unique, even if built on assembly lines.
(regarding my previous posts in this thread).
This week I got a second Champion 600 and ADORE it. So maybe the previous one I had was a lemon.
This year has been Amp Search. Had a 60's silverface Champ, sounded nice but just 'nice', sold it. Had the first Champion 600, didn't sound nice at all, sold it. Summer-autumn I tried 3 solid-state amps, all had SOME good points, but none provided the chillbumps, all went back to the store.
BTW: both the first Champ 600 and the one I have now are the Gretsch Electromatic G5222 version. Same amp, different cosmetics. I like the tweed covering.
Ya know when an amp just feels 'right,' immediately? When ya find yer playing for HOURS at a stretch, ya turn it off, telling yerself "geez, the rest of my life is being neglected"--but 20 minutes later you turn it back on and are playing again? That's been my life for the last week. That's what's goin' on with this little amp.
Okay, I'm not using it 'stock.' Immediately replaced the so-so stock tubes. Using an old telefunken 12AT7 in the pre-amp. 70% of the power of a 12AX7. The power tube is a Fender 6V6 from a 60's SF Champ. One (or both) of the tubes is microphonic, but the rattles only show up when it's cranked, I can live with it until getting better tubes.
I'm mainly using the low-gain input, with a Zoom 505 upfront--patches edited for minimal tonal coloration--no distortion, no amp models--for reverb w/choice of clean, slightly chorus'd or slightly tremelo'd.
It sounds good with every guitar and pickup I use.
It's not the build-quality of a steel-chassis point-to-point, but it's decently-made modern PCB work and IMO represents good value for the $.
It reminds me of many amps I owned/used when younger. Fenders, Danelectros, Magnatones, Supros. That sense of intuitive/mindless effortlessness when playing through it. You forget about the amp and achieve tonal variations via yer technique and the guitar's controls. A Blues Junior I owned about 8 years ago didn't provide that same sense. Dunno why.
For me it's not a matter of solid-state vs. tube. It's just about Good Sound. I still ADORE my Roland Micro-cube--the only other recent-years amp which produced 'love at first-listen.' Using the C600's bridged inputs, I've also been using both the C600 and the Micro-cube in tandem. Sounds lovely.
Hey, I'm 58. I now HATE heavy gear. Hate hauling Major Appliances around. Especially post-gig.
And I don't like playing loud anymore. Playing lots of old-time fiddle has surely influenced my attitudes about volume and portability of gear. I now greatly prefer BRUSHED drums and unamplified acoustic bass to accompany guitar. If things have to be louder, that's what PA's are for--or the dang audience can just move closer to the stage. For such set-ups, 5-watts is plenty.
(The Old Time Herald--a mag about traditional old-time music--had an article about PA's & amplification for traditional musicians, who tend to uninformed about such gear. The article's title said a LOT, with a wink: "Am I Too Loud Enough Yet?")
Plus: this little amp LOOKS great. I know--not essential, but still.. looking at it, ya get the feeling Charlie Christian's spirit is floating around.
So, regarding my previous 'authoritative opinions' about the Champion 600/Gretsch Electromatic G5222: DOH!!!
Caveat: if possible, try a few of 'em in a shop. Might be some quality-control issues...this one sure sounds good, while the first one I had sure didn't. Other folks have reported similar.Last edited by janepaints; 10-24-2009 at 02:51 AM. Reason: conciseness
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I am surprised too. Mass produced chinese amps are usually consistent. Consistenly bad or consistenly good. I am glad you have returned to the fold wayward one
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A little surprised that you like the AT for V1. Have you ever tried a 12ay7?
You convinced me to break mine out again. I have a 6k6 in mine that is biased a little cold. The stock Fender has like a velvet grill cloth that is a notorious tone suck so maybe I will cut a new baffle and install that. Sounds like fun for a saturday afternoon.
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Speaking of the Micro-Cube (I've owned one), I prefer the VOX incarnations (I've also owned a DA5, but now I own a DA10). However, the Micro-Cube sounds great lined out into a PA, where the VOX does not. I sometimes jam with a friend who owns a PA and only plays at home. He sold his Twin Reverb and plays his Micro-Cube through his PA exclusively now.
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I too am surprised that there would be that much difference between the same amp. I am guessing you got a lemon at first, as your recent experience and mine this summer seem to be pretty similar. Enjoy. Originally Posted by janepaints
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I also tried a 12au7 but that was TOO gentle and killed the cranked option...the 12at7 sounded best to my ears... Originally Posted by dh82c
Yes, the Gretsch baffle is also some kinda fake moleskin...besides dampening the tone it BUZZES at high volume...it'll be replaced.
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I have two questions for the Champ 600 owners:
- I read that it is possible to disconnect the amp from its 6" speaker and connect it to an external speaker: what external speakers is the 5W amp able to drive?
- is it possible to plug the amp into a reverb stompbox and the stompbox into the speaker? (I assume this amounts to the same as asking: is it possible to plug an amplifier head into a stompbox and the stompbox into a cabinet?
)
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- As long as it is a 4ohm cab you can plug it in to anything. I have heard of guys plugging it in to a 4x12 and not sounding too bad. NOT a typical jazz setup tho. You dont see many single speakers at 4ohms except for 6in and 8in (of course there are exceptions). To get 4 ohms you are more likely to see 2x12 or 2x10 cabs. If you have access to one you can try it. I wouldnt spend more on a cab than the amp. Originally Posted by Fidelcaster
I have two questions for the Champ 600 owners:
- I read that it is possible to disconnect the amp from its 6" speaker and connect it to an external speaker: what external speakers is the 5W amp able to drive?
- is it possible to plug the amp into a reverb stompbox and the stompbox into the speaker? (I assume this amounts to the same as asking: is it possible to plug an amplifier head into a stompbox and the stompbox into a cabinet? )
-no, I have never seen a reverb that sits between the amp and the speaker. Dont try it. You will blow the rev. and if you leave it long enough the amp as well.
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