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The guitar - acoustic - is a '50s parallel braced, rosewood fb & bridge, long scale.
I've got it strung w/ 12/52's, is there some set-up trick I'm missing, or what? Does this combination just require softer picking ?
I just tried a set of 13's and they were ok but went back to 12's thinking that would help playability, but they didn't really.
I have my '30's L-7, also acoustic, same size orig. frets & scale, but I can pick hard on the 12s on it, and it just seems to take hard picking better.
Anyone been through this & find something that worked ??
Thanks
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12-16-2016 11:52 AM
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how do the neck angles compare?
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I grew up playing a 53 ES175d. It also had the skinny frets. I didn't know any better. The skinny frets required more precision when you play. And they steal a lot of tone from the guitar. Once you play a guitar with Medium Jumbo's its really hard to play anything else.
Even my beloved L7c had the skinny frets. While I enjoyed the challenge of being more precise in my playing, I quickly realized how spoiled I am with Medium Jumbo's.
That even goes for the Small/Jumbo frets on my Gibson Johnny Smith. I am refretting that Guitar 1st week of January. I will be reducing the value of that guitar by taking perfectly perfect frets off of it and replacing them with Modern Medium Jumbo's.
There is nothing you can do to get around it. You will be modifying your touch to get sounds out of the guitar. Eventually, You will play other guitars that are easier to play and abandon the skinny fret guitars.
JD
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I suspect the guitars are not set up the same.
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You might want to get out tape measure and check the scale length on the '30s L-7.
The Advanced L-7 had a 24 3/4" scale, shallow neck angle (and x-bracing) until the very late '30s, when the specifications changed to 25 1/2" scale (and parallel bracing). Good point about neck angles as well - post-war archtops usually have steeper neck angles.
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I am with JD. Medium Jumbos make playing so much easier. I am at a point where I no longer even like to play a guitar that has had a fret level. I am thinking that I will play my medium Jumbos until the divots are so big that a refret is needed.
Frets are like tires on a car. Get the tires that suit your driving style and get the frets that suit your playing style.
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I refretted my '44 L7. That took care of it. Couldn't stand playing on banjo wire frets. Now, it's as sweet as it gets. Medium Jumbo's. Yeah!
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Here's the tale of the tape:
Originally Posted by Hammertone
The '30's L-7 - -nut to c/l of bridge: 25 in.
The '50's L-7 - - nut to c/l of bridge: 25 + 1/2....
From what I can tell, the neck angles look very similar, but that's just eyeballing them side by side. My luthier also mentioned & measured that last year, but compared it with the L-5 R/I I still had, and I may not still have the note. But that could be an answer too. At that time my luthier said the 25 in. scale lengths better accommodate thicker strings but long scales don't.
Thanks -- appreciate the help.
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I don't know, HT. My '38 L-50 has a fairly steep neck angle. Even though it's one of the models with the fingerboard flush to the top, the neck angle sort of reminds me of a cello when I sight down the neck, or look at the guitar from the side. I have always thought that this angle is good for tone, but I don't exactly know why. (The fact that it's about a 4-pound guitar probably has a LOT to do with the tone, ultimately.)
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Cool beans! Originally Posted by Dennis D
I usually measure scale from the nut to the 12th fret, then x 2, which avoids dealing with how a guitar bridge might be compensated.
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Refret
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I tried to save the frets on my 65 ES175. They were not skinny, but they were flat with not much left for re-crowning. Sometimes we would love to keep the instruments as close to original as possible, but we must chose whether we will be players or collectors and whether we will allow the instrument to be played and enjoyed or hang on a wall. It's always a tough one. But yeah, frets will play a major difference as well as other set up factors in how the guitar ultimately plays and feels
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Originally Posted by vintagelove
I may get at that.....I think the wait time around here could be a factor.....there's a couple guys in this area who can do re-frets fine, in weeks, but only one ( I think ) who'll do the binding over the fret ends, and then we're talking months...........
Thanks again......
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Originally Posted by PB+J
I guess it depends on your attack, or if you're content with light strings and / or a light touch. This guitar I only use acoustically and at times like to use heavy picking to accent a note or phrase.
I've tried heavier strings, and because that wasn't the answer either, I decided to ask here.
We'll see I guess...
Thanks again.
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Dennis, Different strokes for different folks bro.
Please don't rule out a Refret.
Its not a bad thing.
Joe D
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Or here's another head scratcher of mine, Joe and everyone -- Originally Posted by Max405
Whenever I acquire another guitar, it goes to the luthier with a set of 12/52 Chromes.....My thinking is ' OK, we start there, let's see what I get '....In 2 weeks I usually get it back......Then, after a couple months, he gets it back again and it gets tweaked....that's just how he is and that's ok..... ( ' minimally invasive ' ) ....what it'll end up being for me usually takes a year....
...but somehow this '50's L-7 with the skinny frets has been a puzzle......my favorite / perfect setup is low action with some resistance from the strings......so, starting with 12/52's the action was fair - but the string resistance ( 'tension' ? ) was weak.......I could bend notes anywhere, but it wouldn't take to any hard picking at all...so, I went with 13/53's and the action was close but the resistance almost the same.......and of course the playability was a little less....
...so I'm thinking now that yes, I could do the refret, but I'm afraid I still end up with that floppy string feel......
.....the kicker is, the guitar is like new, and I'd never wear it out...
..So, any ideas or suggestions appreciated and thanks for everyone's time !
Dennis
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That's right Joe, Refret is not a bad thing. I like nice new medium jumbo's when necessary, but I'm going to try those golds the next time. It's going to be a while however, unless I buy another guitar (hmmm) that needs new frets, because all of my guitars have nice frets. Like driving, I like good traction and smooth road, I hate hitting potholes.
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Dennis,
12/52 chromes really woke up my old L7c. So your strings are right.
I don't remember that guitar ever being particularly loud. But I do remember it bottoming out under forceful picking.
I cant guarantee this to be the case, but I always thought that more mass on the fret that I was fretting felt like it would have made a difference. The skinny frets distorted the sound.
You can hear it. They just thin out the sound a little of this otherwise extraordinary guitar.
JD
Originally Posted by Dennis D
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If by "it wouldn't take to any hard picking at all" you mean it was fretting out or buzzing? Or do you mean something else? Originally Posted by Dennis D
I've only recently come to appreciate how many different factors go into a set up beside simple "action" (i.e. string height at the 12th fret). Because outside of that specific figure, there is also the amount of relief dialed in, and something that I often neglect, the depth/height of the nut slots. Because the bridge height, nut slot depth/height and truss rod all act as a system, it's more than just the simple figure of the height at the 12th fret.
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I think I know what you mean by 'buzzing' - - ( buzzing, I'm guessing )...but what do and others mean when you say Originally Posted by campusfive
' fretting out ' ?
Thx
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I dunno, I like heavy strings and don't have an especially light right hand, but I really love the feel of the small skinny frets. I have my doubts that they could be effecting the tone all that much, they are a node against which the string is not vibrating. It might be I like them because i don't have an especially light touch, and I feel like the make me play lighter
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As a repairman, I second Campusfive's comments on the importance of (at least) three factors: action at the 12th fret, amount of relief, and nut slot depth, for optimum playability. This assumes the frets are in good shape, whatever their size(although, for myself, I like big frets).
Last edited by Dave Richard; 12-18-2016 at 09:50 PM.
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Jumbo width and medium height with a nice crown is the only way to go unless you play cowboy chords on a flat top.
For years Gibson used medium jumbo frets but no crown. They had a flat top on the fret which is a tone robber too.
Everyone seems to covet binding fret nibs. They are only there so Gibson doesn't have to dress the fret ends properly.
A master fret job will feel even smoother without the nibs.
I see a lot of fret job fear on this site. To me a fret job is the same as a string change just a bit expensive these days.
I also disagree that it will affect the value of a guitar.
I will agree if you don't have a good luthier a fret job can be scary. LOL !
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With small, shallow frets you'll be touching the fingerboard which feels much different than the light touch required to fret notes on jumbos. You can even feel the difference on jumbos that have been well crowned vs. not crowned, or just filed flat. Fret height is crucial as well. I've performed many refrets through the years and have settled on .106 x .047 as my go to Gibson jumbo style wire.
My 49 L12c still has its smaller wire, and my 1940 L12 does too. They both play really well, and might feel better with jumbos. The major factor beyond the small wire issue is if there is a hump in the fingerboard near the joint which requires raised action to clear the hump to get clear notes. The fact that both of my old guitars don't have a hump is what has kept me from refretting.
While it's great to have an unmodified (sounds much better than unmolested) instrument, it's ultimately important to have a high desire to reach for an instrument because you dig playing it.
Make sure your luthier looks for a hump while under tension. Also, if the neck block has come unglued it can cause a hump in the board since it allows the neck to shift its angle and bind against the structures that haven't yet failed. Its worth looking at.
I am a fan of fret edge binding....nibs....nubs, whatever you'd like to call it. You can spend the extra dough and have your luthier remove and replace the binding with nubs to have the factory feel. Last year I did a 64 J.Smith this way. If careful, you can remove just the outer lamination of binding(the layer that makes the nubs) so you don't get into the multiple part.
Good luck.
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guitarcarver.....just curious, what did you charge for the 64 JS job with the binding replacement ? Sounds like the way to go for nib lovers. It has to be a lot more labor though.
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