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I am normally quite sceptical about those who replace caps and pots with identical values, but then claim that the new version of their beloved guitar sounds so much better. Well, I thought I had better put my money where my mouth is and try it for myself, just so that I can say - yes - tried that - it doesn't make any difference ! So I have purchased some new CTS pots and a couple of new caps to re-wire my Peerless Gigmaster. I have already swapped the pickups for new Seth Lovers, but I left the wiring kind of untidy, so I need to do something about it.
However, before I start I would appreciate some opinions about the virtues of 50s vs modern wiring i.e. attaching the tone cap to the cool or hot end of the volume pot. I understand that the 50s method is slightly brighter overall, and less susceptible to the tone changing with the volume knob compared to the more modern method. As I am struggling with the perception that my Gagmeister is lacking some brightness, especially in the bass strings, I am thinking I might go the vintage route. Also, it will be interesting to see how it is currently wired - which might influence my decision one way or the other.
Any thoughts ?
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08-02-2016 01:53 PM
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To me decent electronics do make a difference. In particular, cheap guitars can be really elevated by good electronics - and it is a cheap way to get quite a bit more out of a guitar. So I would always do that when I swap pickups in a cheap guitar. E.g. I have a contemporary series Hofner Verythin. Well made, nice looking guitar, but the electronics were poor. After swapping both pickups and electronics it became an awesome axe. I like the 50s wiring as I am not a fan of loosing so much treble by turning down volume. I have never tried it in an archtop though.
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As I understand "50's wiring" the result is that when you turn down the volume pot, you do not cut treble at the same time. While this could be useful for some applications, it's not what I would want because (for me) keeping the treble up full or close to full on and rolling down the volume knob on my guitar while having my amp turned up maybe half way up or more (way too loud with guitar vol at 8 - 10), takes out any harsh high end treble while maintaining excellent clarity and note separation at a reasonable volume while using the neck humbucker. This work for me much better than rolling down the tone knob, it just sounds better.
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With the 50s wiring the tone knob goes from all to nothing to abruptly unless you have very high quality pots such as the RS pots. Some purist like the 50s wiring for their Les Pauls etc, but I find it not to be too practical for me as I like to tweak the tone know often and like a more gradual sweep.
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My only guitar with 50ies wiring is my '48 ES-125 (well, actually 40ies wiring...). The volume and tone react very strongly to each other, they are not independent at all. Turning down volume makes me turn up tone and vice versa. It's quirky, but I actually grew to like it, it enables you to find that 'sweet spot' on any volume. Those old pots are of very high quality apparently, because the sweep is very smooth and gradual.
I wired my ES-175 copy according to the 50ies wiring with a Stew Mac kit with cheap pots and in that guitar the tone reacts not very to my liking: hardly any change in tone until the very end of the sweep, then tone changes very quickly.Last edited by Little Jay; 08-03-2016 at 01:36 AM.
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I've heard guitars which benefitted from it, and guitars which didn't. I think the quality of components matters as much, if not more so. Jonesy over at MLP could tell you much more; he builds and sells drop-in harnesses (I'm not affiliated with him in any way other than knowing him there), and can speak more intelligently.
One thing I didn't like about my old Lester was the treble roll-off with lowered volume. I'm not sure it would be so problematic playing jazz, though.
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How do me ol' China, JayBee here with a few bits of info for ye...
Originally Posted by newsense
All the years I've been modding and tweaking I've find my self preferring certain tone caps over others and I'd like to elucidate to you me own findings.
I don't like the chicklet caps. More like chicklet craps. Why stick cotton wool in yer ears?
Orange drop caps are consistent and therefore a good starting point. Cannot fault them. easy to find and cheap too.
PIO (Paper In Oil) caps are where it's at for me. I perceive a cut in highs and gradual increase in low frequencies with this style. I had loads of these. Two for £3 was a steal IMO. I've used up my supply now. This circuit is on a P90 equipped guitar with a 500k volume and a 250k tone CTS pots. I find I prefer this on my P90 guitars.
But I've found these! £3.50 each and worth it. Sublime sweep on cheapy 250k Alpha. I might switch to CTS but these sound fine.
The guy selling these is based in L'pool monstertone_arcade | eBay
Originally Posted by newsense
Yep, the 50's wiring behaves differently and is more musical to these jaded old ears of mine. Of course full on it's mush but the Telecaster bridge pickup with this still cuts through.
I would earth the cap to the tone control though. Looks neater to me.
I would say that turning down the volume tends to cut the highs anyway. But with the 50's wiring the tone and volume interplay is more organic. Say for instance you are playing rhythm with the volume turned down a tadge and the tone is balanced to your ears; then it's your turn to solo you just turn up the volume, the highs come into play and you cut through.
But having said that on an ES 175 I would also preset the bridge to be slightly louder when selecting the middle position on the selector for a jump in volume. Then you would have a bit of scope with tonal variations, that would satisfy your needs to keep you in the 'zone' and more musical.
But alas, in the end the audience wouldn't know the difference anyways.
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Many thanks everyone - I'm in for an interesting time when I can get sufficient activation energy to start the job.
And thanks JB for your very full response. I have half a mind to install a switch so that I can swap between the two configurations on the fly - but that would be stupid ! I guess I'd like to get my choice right first time, so as I don't have to disassemble again once I have reassembled it all in my chosen configuration.
Maybe I can leave the neck pickup in place, with the pot assembly on the bench, making it easy to move the cap and then compare the control interactions of the two configurations before I finally reassemble everything.
Whaddya think ?
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Check this out... Originally Posted by newsense
And...
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I've done that mod on several guitars, and a couple of electric mandos I built. I'm in the camp that hates the tone rollloff with volume reduction. I prefer the same tone at any volume, and setting tone with the tone control, not the volume control. Not everyone does, of course.
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Playing rock and blues, I set my amp up with the guitar's volume set around seven or so, both pickups. At that point, I want the amp able to be very clear with light picking, and grab a little grit if I dig in with my right hand, and I can roll up or down to set that tipping point. Originally Posted by jazzbow
I would say that turning down the volume tends to cut the highs anyway. But with the 50's wiring the tone and volume interplay is more organic. Say for instance you are playing rhythm with the volume turned down a tadge and the tone is balanced to your ears; then it's your turn to solo you just turn up the volume, the highs come into play and you cut through.
But having said that on an ES 175 I would also preset the bridge to be slightly louder when selecting the middle position on the selector for a jump in volume. Then you would have a bit of scope with tonal variations, that would satisfy your needs to keep you in the 'zone' and more musical.
But alas, in the end the audience wouldn't know the difference anyways.
Different story if I'm using a volume pedal; the guitar is wide-open and the volume pedal becomes the choke-point, for me.
But you're right, once the band kicks in, nuance is scarecely noticable even by musos.
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YES the wires, caps, pots all make a HUGE difference.
Might I also suggest you all fill the hollow body with a heavy inert gas which does not fall out, AND wear a tin foil hat for maximum effect. :-)
Seriously, "I thought" that MODERN versus classic wiring was one where putting the switch in the center position the volume of one pup being dropped to zero did not cut off the volume of the other, as opposed to one volume going to zero cuts the whole guitar volume off like most current Gibson midels.
But with so many opinions out there on the issue I prefer to play the git rather than boggle my mind with definitions my brain could care less about.
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Oh Gary - why did you have to complicate the issue even more ? Now I have to think about even more options instead of learning a new tune !
I have seen at least four wiring configurations which are claimed to provide all the options: a combination of coupled or uncoupled volumes with the aforementioned more or less treble cut on the volume control. I believe the decoupled configs result in even more treble loss and need to be combined with the treble bleed circuit (another cap and resistor) to be successful. Hence I'm not going there.
P.S. I find I only need to wear my tin foil hat when playing my Tele.
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I alway admired players who are able to this consistently and convincingly. It is a great strategy to get most out of your guitar electronics. If one thinks about it, the Les Paul type electronics are ingenious. Set the amp dirty, eq it for the neck pickup, set to both pickups, back the bridge tone down a bit and the two volumes to about seven. Voila, just by using the two volume knobs one has a huge array of tones available, from fat rhythm to clean to fat lead without stepping on any pedal. I have never been relaxed enough on stage to do this though. Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
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I know I started this thread, but having just found a 9 page (!) thread on the same topic on TGP, I'm beginning to get forum fatigue: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/ind...bunked.224610/
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The last generation (not current) Korean D'Angelico 2 pup models, and my Cort Triggs models used the what I called the modern or decoupled volume control wiring. Originally Posted by newsense
Since I use the middle position a LOT it was a wondrous discovery that made me wish I could snap my fingers and miraculously have my Gibsons converted.
Now the Gibson paradigm seems so stupid an implementation of volume control.
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