Archtop Guitars with Floating Pickups

[Ren]

Inspired by vinnyv1k's recent experience trying out a LeGrand, I thought I'd start a thread on this particular species of archtops (I'm thinking solid, carved-top guitars with floating pickups like the LG, of course Citation, Lee Rit L5, L5 Premier, Sweet 16 etc). I have more than an academic interest in this topic; I have an L5 Premier with BJB floater I bought a couple of years ago. Why, you may ask? Well, I was getting to that age when you start to feel like a jackass playing in cover bands, so I decided to give jazz guitar one more good effort before my senescence. I sold half my rock gear to raise some $, did a little reading about archtops, and concluded that the classic L5CES and its variants were some kind of over-built abominations. Why would you take a painstakingly carved solid top and start routing pickups and knobs into it blah blah blah? The L5P appealed to my naive purist sensibility of what an archtop was supposed to be.

Now don't get me wrong, I love my L5P; it's my favorite guitar to play acoustically. But it doesn't deliver classic CES or 175 tones. That's why I eventually sold the other half of my rock gear for a CES and a 175. But I digress ... What I'd like to hear from those of you with vastly more experience than me with all kinds of archtops, is what do you make of archtops with floaters in general? Do you like 'em, what playing styles are they best suited for, which amps work best with them etc. Thanks in advance for all your help!

Ren

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I have an L5-P with a BJB floater. I like playing it acoustically, too. Plugged in, it has a thinner, more acoustic sound than a L5-CES, for sure. I used to use a Polytone, but now I use an acoustic amp (a Phil Jones AG-100).

My main beef with the L5-P is that the top is so lively, it feeds back if you look at it funny. I was playing in a small room with the volume well down and the amp next to me and pointed forward, and it still fed back! The sound was bouncing off a glass patio door, I figured out.

These days, I play my T-style almost exclusively. I drank the Kool-Aid!

[plectrum99x]

Hi Ren,
Interesting query.
I have been playing some form of guitar for more than 55 years, and for most of that time on various arch tops. I currently have more arch top guitars than any reasonable guitarist would need or should own but, I digress, as the accumulation was the result of my search for the holy grail. That said, I have sold or traded most of my floaters, while the keepers—with the exception of two—all have set PUP's. The reason is that during my search for the grail I realized that, for my ears, the desired tone came from guitars with set PUPs—my collection of L5 CES' and various other set PUP arch tops. I view my floaters as acoustics, and play them when I am too lazy to walk across the room to plug into the amp.

[2bornot2bop]

Love acoustics. Absolutely love 'em!

The Guild Artist Award is near tops on my list for a safe purchase acoustic with a deep, darker, voice than other acoustics I've owned. The Guild has a 3.25" depth, and its top isn't so thin - Prior to the AA's arrival all other acoustics I'd owned had a 3" depth. The AA was my lightbulb moment - Extra depth matters. Oh there was that one Golden Eagle that was the exception to any other Heritage I've owned...well okay, two GE's, but the other was a rare non cutaway GE...oh and there was that GBJSA with its harmonic brilliance.

An Asian import has me rethinking acoustics entirely. It has 3.75" of depth, and it's an 18" guitar.

I'm a huge fan of the BJB pup...I had one on an 18" Super Eagle acoustic, which had a very thin top, much like Vinny's. Still, the bigger box on that SE made a difference. I'm not a fan of guitars with limited voice ranges. I prefer a full voice spectrum, including bass to match a stellar midrange.

Best acoustic I ever owned was a Bourjois A350. It was essentially a lap piano. But it had no bass, so out it went.

I'd love nothing better to own a vintage L7, or Triumph, which I hear are acoustic canon's. But I'm not brave enough to take the vintage plunge...they seem like very treacherous waters.

edit - and TUBE AMPS. All sound is better if there's a tube in the mix, to my ears.

[ESCC]

I love a 17" carved archtop with a floating pick-up. I use TI Swing 13s or 12s and I love the acoustic tone for chord melody - straight up and amplified, I think of it as a "sweet" melodic sound. I also have a passion for thunk, a heavy laminate with a set pick-up is pure jazz through and through. Fortunately there is enough room on this planet for both styles.

Following my friend 2bop's post I'd be foolish to post photos and discuss previously owned guitars!

[Cunamara]

IMHO this is what archtops with floaters are about tonally. Big sonic range, lots of bass with clear articulate top end.

To my ears, archtops with set-in pickups are more mid focused. That can be a thing of beauty as well:

Thanks, Joe, for making the comparison so convenient!

[Archtop Guy]

I have loved arch tops since the early sixties. And have owned many. Always in search of the holy grail. Consider me the original 2Bop. No insult intended Greg. I am not a professional player so I've never really needed an electric for volume. Though I love the variety of sounds electrics can produce, my favorite is the acoustic sound of an archtop. The feel of the guitar vibrating as she projects. Using vibrato on an acoustic is something you actually feel in your fingers not just hear it through an amplifier.
BigDaddy,states that his floater sounds thinner to him. But that really depends on how that particular arch top was built. For example my 17" Triggs New Yorker style is built slightly thicker like a Johnny Smith. With a much more electric sound. More toward the CES sound. I feel you can get the best of both worlds with a floater that suits your balance of electric and acoustic. Where as with a CES style,you get just the CES sound.

[Bluedawg]

Yeah ... Cunamara is on the right track IMHO

A nice floater gets you what I call Johnny Smith tones .... on the bright side and almost chimey ... but still mellow and jazzy

The laminated Tal Farlow sounds like classic Joe Pass tones

The solid carved set in pup gets you the classic Wes tones

All IMHO YMMV

[Stringswinger]

Ren,

I have 7 archtops with floaters and I have owned 3 that I no longer have.

Here are my thoughts about each:

1. 1937 D'Angelico Style A. This is a non cut 17 inch guitar with a 25 inch scale and a 1 11/16 nut. It has a permanently attached vintage Dearmond 1100 pickup with a modern volume pot. It is a superb guitar, loud acoustically, though not a cannon, warm and fat both unplugged and plugged in. It is a different sound than a humbucker equipped guitar, being more "detailed" on the high end. I like it for any style of music and find that it sounds great with my Fender tube amps or any of my solid state amps as well.

2. 1948 D'Angelico Style B. This is a non cut 17 inch guitar with a 24 3/4 scale and a 1 3/4 nut. It too has a permanently attached vintage Dearmond 1100 pickup, but this guitar has the original Dearmond pickup control bix attached to the pickguard (volume, tone and rhythm switch). This guitar is a cannon acoustically. It is very similar to the older DA, and also sounds great through all of my amps.

3. 1993 D'Angelico II (built by Heritage). This is the guitar in the above Joe D. video. It is a 18 inch cutaway guitar with a 25 3/8 scale. It has a permanently attached handmade Kent Armstrong PUP (Humbucking) and has both a volume and tone pot on the pickguard. This guitar is loud acoustically and is very warm. It is similar to the original DA's, though admittedly it is not as "fat" especially up high on the unwound strings. It likes all of my amps as well.

4. 1946 Epiphone Triumph. This is a non cut 17 3/8 inch guitar with a 1 5/8 nut and a 25.5 inch scale. It does not have a permanently attached pickup. I use either of my D'Armond picks with the monkey on the stick setup with it. It is a cannon acoustically and is warm and fat, another "Dangelico-like" guitar. At also works well with all amps.

5. 1951 Epiphone Triumph Regent. This is a 17 3/8 inch cutaway guitar. Same specs as the 46 Epi. And just as loud.

6. 1971 Guild Artist Award. This is a cutaway 17 inch guitar with the same specs as the Epi. This one has a permanently attached vintage DeArmond 1100 pickup in gold with a volume control on the pickguard. This guitar is a tad brighter than the Epis and the DA's, but is still very warm toned. It works well with all amps and sounds great acoustically. It is about as loud as the Heritage built DA replica.

7. 2000 Guild Benedetto Artist Award. This is a cutaway 17 inch guitar with a 25 5/8 scale and a 1 11/16 nut. It has a permanently attached Benedetto humbucking pickup. It is warm and loud (not a cannon). Like the Heritage DA2, it does not have the fatness on the unwound strings up high (apparently only New York luthiers of Italian origin are capable of that!). This guitar sounds best with a acoustic, solid state amp. It is an x braced guitar and has a more "delicate" sound with more overtones than any of my other acoustic archtops. It is a perfect guitar for a quiet solo gig in someone's living room.

8. 1999 Guild Benedetto Artist Award. This guitar was quieter acoustically and brighter than the one I own, so down the road it went. It was still an excellent guitar and the new owner sent me a gushing report.

9. 1953 Epiphone Triumph. This guitar had the same specs as my 1946 Epi. All of the old Epis had fat necks. At the time I owned this guitar, that was a deal killer for me. These days I am used to them. I sold this one at a time when that was not the case. IIRC, this one was even fatter than the two I own and the neck might still be a deal killer for me. I got a gushing report from the new owner on this one as well.

10 Korean made D'Angelico Excel. This was a closeout guitar direct from the factory. It was a 17 inch cutaway with a 25.5 scale and 1 11/16 nut and had an Asian made Kent Armstrong floater. It was a laminate body. I paid $800 including shipping for it. After playing it for a couple of months, I sold it on my local Craigslist for $1,000 (how often do you get paid $200 to demo a guitar?). The guitar played well and sounded OK. The tone was a bit harsh, there was no woodiness to the tone and the sunburst was far from perfect.

[Greentone]

I have owned and played a lot of archtop guitars. Some with set in pickups and some with floating pickups.

As I see it, they are two distinctly different instruments--yet both are the essential paradigms of "jazz guitars." FWIW, a D'Angelico Excel or New Yorker with a DeArmond pickup attached to a monkey bar on the neck is THE most exciting sounding jazz instrument of all time--I would actually rank it ahead of either the trumpet or the tenor saxophone played by a virtuoso. Johnny Smith, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, George Benson, and others made this instrument a definitive voice.

The Johnny Smith guitar with a mini-humbucker is another exceptional and distinctive floating pickup guitar in jazz history. Between Smith's D'Angelico and his Gibson, Smith's recorded output paved the way for those of us interested in jazz guitar to develop a hunger for a carved body guitar with a floating pickup.

I would put my Aaron Cowles Unity 100th Anniversary Custom up against any carved 17" guitar with a floating pickup. It has a distinctive voice that defies the genre by leaning towards a deeper, less bright tone--for an archtop with a floating pickup. This is due mainly to the fact that the pickup on this instrument is a Shadow 48 Attila Zollar pickup (made for Zollar on his 48th birthday). If a Johnny Smith guitar and a L-5CES had an offspring it would be the Unity:

OTOH, you have the thicker-topped, carved-body archtops with set-in pickups. The guitar against which all others are measured in this type is, of course, the Gibson L5-CES. Acoustically, the thick top and all the suspended hardware takes a toll on the top plate's ability to resonate in sympathy with the strings' energy. Electrically, however, this guitar is--to use Miles' term--a mother******. The tone of a carved-body archtop guitar with set in pickup(s) is deeper, and denser than the D'Angelico/Johnny Smith/Guild AA/etc. The Super 400, the Heritage Golden Eagle, Eagle Classic, and Super Eagle, and other guitars like these are treasures.

I think of the voice of a Johnny Smith guitar as being sort of like Ella Fitzgerald in her prime. The L-5CES, OTOH, sounds to me more like Sarah Vaughan...or maybe like Johnny Hartman. No, the L5 is Sassy and the Super 400 is Johnny Hartman. The floating pickup archtop gets a very articulate, light and lilting jazz sound. The set pickup carved Gibsons get articulate tones with some smoke in their throats.

THEN...you have the laminated-body archtops with set-in pickups. The king of the hill--to me--will always be the Gibson ES-150 from the 1930s, with the so-called Charlie Christian pickups. Close behind, however, are the post-war ES-350, the ES-175, the Tal Farlow model, and the Howard Roberts models. These guitars are capable of getting the most horn-like attack/delay of the archtops. Running lines on a 175 or a Tal is like being a guitarist empowered to play sax bebop lines, I swear. The "thunk" is like the "tikka" on sax.

Me...I keep all three around and thank my lucky stars that I have an understanding wife.

[2bornot2bop]

Priceless descriptions GT. Leave it to Miles to get to the point!

[lawson-stone]

I have not owned and played nearly as many as most here, but I've had:

Heritage Golden Eagle
Loar LH650
Peerless Monarch

What I like about guitars with floaters is that they can do double-duty for when you need an acoustic archtop, like playing rhythm in a swing band, but you can also plug'em in when it's time to solo.

I have come, after about 20 of playing around with archtops, to realize I like the ES175 and L5ces sounds best. I like the small-bodied laminate, the big bodied solid, both with routed in pickups. I like the thickness of the ES175 type of guitar, and I like the stringy, sweet full sound of the big 17"x3.25" L5 type body with the mounted pickup.

What I like about those is precisely the movement away from the flat-top acoustic sound to the more flute-like or trumpet-like articulation of the classic Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery or Kenny Burrell sound.

I do still enjoy hearing the others played; it's all good, but having tried most of them, that's where I've come down.

[jads57]

I use my Elferink Tonemaster 16&1/2" x 2&1/2" w/ Kent Armstrong floater in smaller more intimate acoustic settings duo or trio. I use my Benedetto Bambino in louder more electric band settings w/ a drummer.
I think of the carved top as an acoustic instrument first that is electrified vs. the laminate as an electric guitar that has acoustic properties.

[Greentone]

Hammertone,

I know how that Gibson L-4C with the DeArmond FMC on the stick sounds. I owned that pickup for years and years and used it on a L50, a L4, and an L7. It's on my friend's L4 as I write. The sound is really even (records especially well) and will inspire you to play as well as you can. Great pickup and great guitar.

[Hammertone]

That guitar is now in the hands of a fine player down in Nashville who knows his stuff bigtime.
I was able to spend some time with him in Toronto where he had some studio time booked, and he thought it was just swell. He picked up the guitar, played it acoustically and bought it in under 10 seconds.

[Ren]

Thanks all for the valuable info, vids and pics! This has been very educational. Consider all above posts "Liked." What I'm coming to understand is that there is a spectrum in this category ranging from purely acoustic archtops, which may have a floater for added utility, to archtops carved thicker to complement an electric voice with a floating pickup, different from the carved top with set-in humbuckers. I'd love to hear more about your recommendations for amplifying these beasts. Do you prefer a more hifi amp (as BigDaddy mentions) or a more colored, tube sound (as per 2B)?

[medblues]

It truly depends on what the floater is. Joe DeNisco has a better position to comment/compare but my Heritage Johnny Smith which has a thin carve and is 5.9 lbs had its stock pickup changed to a handwound full size Ken Armstrong humbucker (by Guitarbean25 I believe) does not sound bright to my ears at all when I amplify it through my Fender George Benson or through my Polytone. I think Guitarbean25 is in the best position to comment. Any other light and thin carved archtop owners who installed full size floating humbuckers care to contribute ? I don't have an archtop with a set-in pickup but I have listened to all of Wes Montgomery's records at high resolution. Of course, it goes without saying that my ears are probably worse than many of you when it comes to detecting subtle nuances in guitar tone(s).

[Marty Grass]

This is a fun thread- all opinion and no science. So I'll wade in.

There is great overlap, both amplified and unamplified. Master luthiers can slant the tonal tendencies by wood choice, design features, and how the braces and box is carved. I don't think that statement is controversial.

Placing hardware on the top can dampen the sound board but may only make a lively thin carve sound like a thicker carve. Few would argue with that.

It is not difficult to alter the pickup signal frequency signature. Therefore, brights, mid and bottom can be manipulated. Again, this is a fact.

It's really the nuances that people hear or think they hear after amplification that stirs discussion and disagreement.

In my case, I'm not sure I could consistently tell the difference between a recording of a floater vs. a set pup if the pickup designs were the same. It helps me discern when I'm holding the guitar because I also hear the acoustic sound plus I see it. I can't shake my bias. I can only think I overcame.

When I've listened truly blinded to the instrument, I really cannot tell whether the recording involved a floating Zoller or a set Zoller. The same is true with a Benedetto. Even if I could discern a difference, it would have to be so slight that it would be hard to get emotional about it. This reminds me of being in an optometrist's chair and having to choose which is better, A or B, and not being able to really tell.

[NSJ]

Strange that floaters are never mentioned with plywood or laminate guitars

Especially the ones named after George Benson and Howard Roberts.

My 1974 Gibson Howard Roberts custom with oval hole and floating mini hum-bucker is the only guitar I have ever regretted selling. It created a very nice bright tone that is hard to replicate . Maybe it was the product of the combination of the plywood, oval hole, and floating pick up. .

[Greentone]

The Howard Roberts guitar you refer to is pretty special. I think they are superb jazz guitars with an excellent voice.

[Greentone]

I agree with Doc about set in and floating Zollars. The pickup has a strong voice whether it floats on a neck bracket or suspends in a mounting ring.

[lawson-stone]

Hammertone,

I know how that Gibson L-4C with the DeArmond FMC on the stick sounds. I owned that pickup for years and years and used it on a L50, a L4, and an L7. It's on my friend's L4 as I write. The sound is really even (records especially well) and will inspire you to play as well as you can. Great pickup and great guitar.

Hey tell me about the L50+DeArmond. I have an L50 and I can't see how a pickup could fit under there with the fingerboard hugging the top as closely as it does. Mine's a 1954, btw.

[Greentone]

The DeArmond fits about in between where a neck and a middle pickup would go. It's south of like a Gibson Joe Pass JP20. The result is excellent.

The DeArmond FMC pickup is outstanding.

[lawson-stone]

The DeArmond fits about in between where a neck and a middle pickup would go. It's south of like a Gibson Joe Pass JP20. The result is excellent.

The DeArmond FMC pickup is outstanding.

Fun to know--so do the modern repro's have the same dimensions and fit there?

[Greentone]

The modern ones don't come on the long stick that clamps behind the bridge, AFAIK.