Archtop Guitars with Floating Pickups

[Stringswinger]

The modern Dearmond repros are only available with a neck rod and probably will not work on an L-50. Also the rods on the repros are a tad slimmer than the old rods, so a repro might not work on an old monkey on a stick setup.

Watch Ebay for a vintage Dearmond Guitar mike with a complete monkey on a stick setup. They can be had for $200 or so and are like money in the bank. Plus they sound great with a Polytone amp.

[Hammertone]

Lawson: Here's a 1950 L-4 with a Dearmond FHCC installed. Position is variable with a typical L-48 or L-50, which share similar geometry but may have different neck angles or action. Brighter tone compared to the pickup near the neck, but still great. Less cream in the coffee:

[Jabberwocky]

One of our members had to trade a fully functional Guitar Mike FHC for an original gold-plated short DeArmond neck rod for his original Rhythm Chief 1100. That was a few years before Guild reissued them.

[Greentone]

HT,

I trust your photo. My 'mind's eye' recalled the pickup getting a bit farther up the body towards the neck. Then, again, I used a pretty high action to comp rhythm in those days, too--BIG fan of Freddie Green.

The sound is, nevertheless, pretty good, as you note. All of my recordings of that era are on old 7-1/2" reel-to-reel tapes. Someday, I will have to convert them to a more modern format for contemporary enjoyment.

[Stringswinger]

One of our members had to trade a fully functional Guitar Mike FHC for an original gold-plated short DeArmond neck rod for his original Rhythm Chief 1100. That was a few years before Guild reissued them.

Jabbs, I have a Guitar mike that came with a seriously funky monkey on the stick. I bought one of the repro rods for it and it is far from perfect. Because the repro rods are a bit smaller (metric vs. American?) the pickup is too loose on the rod. It could be held in place with some putty, but if a guy wants the correct rod for a vintage pickup, he will still have to do some serious horsetrading to get it right.

[Hammertone]

HT,

I trust your photo. My 'mind's eye' recalled the pickup getting a bit farther up the body towards the neck. Then, again, I used a pretty high action to comp rhythm in those days, too--BIG fan of Freddie Green.
The sound is, nevertheless, pretty good, as you note. All of my recordings of that era are on old 7-1/2" reel-to-reel tapes. Someday, I will have to convert them to a more modern format for contemporary enjoyment.

Agreed. It depends on preferred action as well as the neck set on each particular instrument. The photo does provide a good general idea of the results with post-war L-48, L-50 and L-4 models. The guitar in the picture has very low action, and sounds great with that set-up - very Charlie Christian/Gatemouth Brown/Tiny Grimes to me.

[powerwagonjohn]

I can get the De Armond 1000 on a stick about half way further up on my 1952 L-4 if I raise the action a little. I just got it back from having the wire replaced between the pick up and control box at LaVonnes music. as I remember it sounded really good on my L-4 but how could it not! This thread has got me inspired to re-install the pick up and give it a run. I haven't tried it with the 1962 Fender Pro. Thanks John

[Herbie]

Great thread and discussion!

When I was more newbie in jazz guitar than nowadays I thought they all were the same. Carved wood or laminated, floater or a standard pickup, what the heck. But as this thread shouts, they are totally different animals.

My first jazz guitar was ES-165, Herb Ellis signature model w/ floater. I liked the look of it more than anything. (And it was cheaper than almost anything!)

After five years I sold it after trying to find a floating pickup that would sound like a normal PAF-style humbucker. Had surely almost ten different pickups in it. Frustrating.

I bought a ES-175 and oh boy, it sounds real!

And this was learning just about different pickups in a laminated hollowbody. Then there is this carving factor AND the scale factor. 25"5' just will not sound like 24"75'.

I have found my thrill in 24"75' and set in humbucker. But then, I have not tried the Holy Grails mentioned here...

[gcb]

Hi Ren.

As others said, an archtop with a floater is a different animal.

This is my L5 Studio Custom. Top signed by James Hutchins. If you notice, there are two knobs on the pickguard. Both are volume controls. Why?

Because I ordered it with a BJB pickup in the neck and a piezo pickup on the bridge.

It has two jacks, one for the BJB on the rim, and one for the piezo in the strap button.

I run the piezo through an L. R. Baggs Acoustic direct box and preamp.

The BJB goes to a Fender Twin Amp.

I love this guitar.

[ah.clem]

I like floaters on carved archtops for fingerstyle playing. OTOH, I had this discussion last year with Howard Paul from Benedetto and he insists an inset pickup sounds better on their carved instruments. He said that a few years ago they built a custom 7 string for Bucky and he insisted on a floater even though Howard tried to get him to go with the inset. Once the guitar was delivered and played for a few months, Bucky had an inset installed. Having heard both style of Benedettos on a few occasions, but only having played the Cremona with a floater, if I could afford one (and was crazy enough to pay that kind of money for a guitar), I would go for the floater. I recently had a chance to play a Dave Miner acoustic "Vinedetto" and it was much more like the sound of the floater (which makes sense). I also think they sound best in a SS amp, but that's just my opinion.

Sadly, I do not have the proficiency to fully appreciate the unique instruments I get to play from time to time. That does not diminish the experience for me, it just provides incentive, and I feel quite fortunate.

[vinnyv1k]

i love that setup. LOVE.
JD

Joe, you are a pickguard away from having the same thing. Don't sell the SF !

[gcb]

Hi vinnyv1k.

There are more differences than "a pickguard" between this guitar and an SF:

this guitar has a solid spruce top, tap tuned by James Hutchins.

it has a piezo in the bridge, which is not an easy install.
l
it is a one off model, ordered in 2002.

Maybe a precursor of the SF.

Joe, you are a pickguard away from having the same thing. Don't sell the SF !

[Marty Grass]

I like floaters on carved archtops for fingerstyle playing. OTOH, I had this discussion last year with Howard Paul from Benedetto and he insists an inset pickup sounds better on their carved instruments.

It's hard to argue with that. But here goes.

Most of my playing is acoustic. That's 2/3 of my practice time. The rest of it I still hear the acoustic sound breaking through. Having a floater has a better chance of a fuller tonal spectrum in those scenarios.

Archtops with floaters tend to be lighter and easier on the shoulder if a strap is used. That's a small point.

Back in my gigging days I really appreciated a Gibson 175 for the feedback resistance and the hotter pickups. Most working guitarists do have set pups for good reasons.

[Cunamara]

I started studying guitar in college with a cat named Bill Ebert. I wanted to play the blues and that lasted about three lessons before he was bored to tears. The rotten SOB suckered me into jazz by playing a Gmaj7 chord (seriously, that was all it took. "Umm... What was *that?*"). Been a lost cause ever since.

When I first started Bill was playing a blonde 1940s L-7 with a Bill Lawrence floater. This would have been 1979 or 1980, so I don't know if that was a "real" BL or not. What a wonderful sounding guitar and the A400 pickup was cery faithful to the acoustic sound of the instrument. Then he replaced that with a blonde Johnny Smith which was (is, actually, he still plays it) a wonderful, wonderful instrument.

So I was initially "set" to carved archtops with floaters as my notion of a jazz guitar and I haven't been able to shake it, even though I think my favorite sound is Jim Hall with his ES-175 when it still had the P90- his stuff with Art Farmer, Sonny Rollins, Jimmy Giuffre, maybe with Paul Desmond too. It took me about 10 years to find the right pickup for my archtop (so far) which is a Pete Biltoft floating CC mounted on a bracket to the end of the neck. It seems to sort of straddle the floater thing and the P90 thing (although definitely leaning toward the floater end of the spectrum).

[Greentone]

I _bad_ wanted to buy that Super Eagle when Greg put it up for sale, but the Unity came up for sale, too. 18" acoustic SE with a floater. Don't see that every day. Woo hoo!

Cunamara is right on point vis-a-vis Jim Hall's tone in the 50s/60s. The 175/P90 into Hall's Gibson GA-45 amp was THE signal chain for years and years, as far as I was concerned. Of course, Jim Hall was the tastiest player, ever.

Well...I will commit to the affirmation above so long as nobody brings up Wes Montgomery playing a L-5CES into a Standel Artist amp, or Kenny Burrell playing a L-5 with a CC into a tweed Fender amp, or Johnny Smith playing a D'Angelico New Yorker Special/D'Armond Rhythm Chief into an Ampeg Fountain of Sound amp. (or Larry Coryell playing a Super 400 into an Ampeg Twin Echo amp) or ...

[Danny W.]

My first amplified archtop was an L-4C with a DeArmond 56 years or so ago. I really liked how it sounded, but my next couple of archtops had set-in pickups. Since then I’ve owned and played a healthy mix of both types. At home I really like the stringiness, detail and acoustic sound of a carved-top guitar with a floater, but at gigs all that nuance gets lost and I’m left with the fact that my floaters are more likely to feed back than my set-ins and don’t necessarily sound as good at stage volume.

That doesn’t mean I’ve never gigged with the floaters; during the ’60’s and ’70’s I did that quite often, but more recently it’s been rare except for quiet gigs in smaller venues, which I never do anymore. All this means that while I’m more likely to ooh & ahh over a floater-equipped guitar, most of my remaining guitars have one or two set in pickups and I haven’t left the house with a floater in at least ten years.

[Greentone]

Danny,

NICE guitars. Cool Borys. Say, how does the Citation sound? You don't see many of those. I just can't pass up inquiring of an owner about such a guitar.

+1 on the home/gig aspect of an archtop with a floater. I, too, gig with set in pickups but play at home with an archtop/floating pickup...except when I gig with a solid-body. (Traitor to the cause)

[JazzNote]

I currently own five arch tops with floaters. A 1953 L7 with a Bartolini, a 1998 LeGrand with a 12 pole KA, a Vestax DA New Yorker with a 12 poe KA, A Incheon DA Excel with a Bartolini and my newest acquisition a 2015 Lee Ritenour Signature with a Johnny Smith floater. They all sound quite different, the Rit being by far the darkest, the New Xorker being the brightest and most percussive. (the Incheon DA is up for sale because i don't play it anymore as i prefer the Vestax for its better sound).

While my 2003 L5CES is still my choice for "important" gigs like established festivals or jazz clubs i tend to like the sound of guitars with floaters more and more as i feel that they respond more direct than the guitars with built in pickups. I'm not sure if this is just my imagination, so i would be curios what others think about this.

I play mostly with a AI Clarus/Raezer's Edge Stealth 10 combination (depending on the band size 1 or 2 speakers) or with 1 or 2 AER Compact 60. I rarely take the floaters to gigs with a drummer. For gigs without drummer i very often use floaters.

[medblues]

How about this formula to make a floating pickup thin carve archtop less bright without having to change the pickup ? Increase the gauge/tension of flat wounds until they choke the top. Would it have a similar effect on both the amplified and acoustic sounds ?

[Jabberwocky]

How about this formula to make a floating pickup thin carve archtop less bright without having to change the pickup ? Increase the gauge/tension of flat wounds until they choke the top. Would it have a similar effect on both the amplified and acoustic sounds ?

I would install 2 thick soundposts under the bridge and call it day. Or stuff the cavity with wool, rock hard, as Pat Martino did with his L5.

Danny, 2 Citations! I am not worthy...I am not worthy...You are the high priest of the Temple of Gibson Archtops and I am but a mere acolyte.

[2bornot2bop]

It took me about 10 years to find the right pickup for my archtop (so far) which is a Pete Biltoft floating CC mounted on a bracket to the end of the neck. It seems to sort of straddle the floater thing and the P90 thing (although definitely leaning toward the floater end of the spectrum).

I'm having that pickup installed this week. Any chance in seeing a photo or two of your setup?

[lawson-stone]

The modern Dearmond repros are only available with a neck rod and probably will not work on an L-50. Also the rods on the repros are a tad slimmer than the old rods, so a repro might not work on an old monkey on a stick setup.

Watch Ebay for a vintage Dearmond Guitar mike with a complete monkey on a stick setup. They can be had for $200 or so and are like money in the bank. Plus they sound great with a Polytone amp.

So I found one on eBay and it's on the way to me right now!

Sadly, I will head out of town for 2 weeks before it arrives, but in late August I hope to try it out with my L50.

[Greentone]

Lawson,

I hope you like it. I know that I did. It was my main jazz set up for about ten years until I got set up with my ES-175. Later on, I actually gave the DeArmond to a friend who had an old L-7 that was just crying out for that pickup (the guitar, not the friend). The friend uses the pickup on that guitar to this day.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson,

I hope you like it. I know that I did. It was my main jazz set up for about ten years until I got set up with my ES-175. Later on, I actually gave the DeArmond to a friend who had an old L-7 that was just crying out for that pickup (the guitar, not the friend). The friend uses the pickup on that guitar to this day.

I'm looking forward to experimenting with this. It'll be my first single-coil experience in decades.

[Greentone]

Wow, Danny. Great guitars. Envious.