Tight grain spruce top?

[Top of the Arch!]

Maybe someone can give me a first hand answer to this question. Two of the same model, all solid carved archtops, all things being equal except one has a tight grain and the other a looser grain top, what noticeable difference will there be in tone if any? Again, everything other than the grain is the same and we all know no two will sound quite the same . Bob

[targuit]

Good question. Have you actually played such a pair of guitars to evaluate the answer?

Not that I have any expertise in the matter, but I did read about changes in the wood and finish over time, though I don't recall if any specific tonal quality was ascribed to them. And I don't clearly recall the details. I would think perhaps a brighter tone would result, but pure speculation.

[fritz jones]

they might be graduated differently, to achieve the same amount of flexibility. You could probably find a lot of discussion about this on the delcamp or luthier forums.

[Matt Cushman]

The grain lines per inch on a piece of spruce is not an indicator of any of the qualities sought out in a top plate. Some tightly grained pieces will be less stiff than wide grained examples. The reverse can also be the case. The builder needs to evaluate the stiffness of each plate as it is being carved and braced to get the most from each plate. I flex my plates using a set amount of force on the top and then measure the amount of deflection to help achieve a consistent result.

[TH]

You've got to try them individually. Arching differences, thicknesses, the individual tree, how it's been played, the angle of the cut (whether it's perfectly quartered),...way to many factors to make any sweeping generalities. All of the above statements are true. I've built two identically spec'd guitars from different top billets and had the wider grained top come in with greater cross grain stiffness, by quite a bit.

But there is some truth in the tight grain rule. I did look for it when selecting tops but there are so many other factors that I wouldn't use it as a criteria for a purchase.

David

[Hammertone]

The grain lines per inch on a piece of spruce is not an indicator of any of the qualities sought out in a top plate. Some tightly grained pieces will be less stiff than wide grained examples. The reverse can also be the case. The builder needs to evaluate the stiffness of each plate as it is being carved and braced to get the most from each plate. I flex my plates using a set amount of force on the top and then measure the amount of deflection to help achieve a consistent result.

Thanks, Matt - what he said.
Most eveything else is marketing BS.

As well, different varieties of spruce have generally identifiable characteristics and looks, which information is typically used by marketers to increase margins as opposed to communicating useful information - more BS.

Decent overview:
Tonewoods | Bourgeois Guitars

[Top of the Arch!]

First off, thanks to everyone who replied. The reason I asked is Ive never noticed any difference in tone that I could hear. Ive had many L5s etc. come thru the store over the years and when I would compare them to my L5 s etc. I never thought there was a noticeable difference. Anyhow, Ive been looking for a Guild AA for a while and found another nice one this past week. It was a fair price and I was thinking about pulling the trigger then the guy gets into the "tight grain" routine. I told him Ive never noticed any difference and he got all insulted, wound up not buying the guitar but it got me wondering what others thought. Thanks again guys! Bob

[Greentone]

With flattop guitars the tradition goes back to classical instrument building. There, the preference is for the grain to be impossibly tight near the center seam, fanning out to wider grain towards the edges of the top--i.e., the upper and lower side of the top. This carried over with Martin and the other important flattop builders.

Archtop building more nearly follows violin making tradition. There, the top plate pattern is not so hard and fast. Still, you generally see the tight in the middle, fan out pattern. This is not always true and some of the exceptions have sounded pretty exceptional.

Still and all, I have found that the guitars that I have enjoyed most have had the tight grained in the center/loose grained at the edges pattern. D'Angelicos are like this. Gibsons are like this. My Unity 100th Anniversary Custom is like this. (It would be, it was made by the guy who built the very top of the line Gibson archtops and mandolins for years.) Heritages are like this.

[2bornot2bop]

The seller got insulted because you didn't buy his grain belief, so he took his guitar home, rather than sell it? Sounds like he was emotionally tied to the guitar...it amazes me how some people get so attached to their guitars.

Plus one for an AA...fabulous buys, but below $4k

[Greentone]

AA +1

If AA has DeArmond Rhythm Chief, +10

[Jehu]

Michael Darnton, violin luthier:

"The wood that the finest old violins are made of defies some common preconceptions.
For instance, many people reflexively associate fine grain with high quality in spruce.
Fine grain is not, however, a characteristic of the tops of the best violins. Most of the
classical makers chose spruce of medium to wide grain spacing. The best of J.B.
Guadagnini's violins are made of extremely wide-grained wood, and Italian cello tops are
usually made of wider-grained wood. Fine grain wood has been popularly attributed with
greater strength, but research specifically into this has shown that this is not true: there's
no correspondence between grain width and cross-grain strength and stiffness. Fine-grain
wood is, however, usually heavier, and excess weight is definitely negative. This, alone,
is reason to stay away from it. Another reason is that under varnish it's not as interesting
or attractive, since some of the most visually interesting things in spruce happen in
between the dark grains.


Maple in old violins, however, is often extremely fine grained. Such wood is nearly
impossible to obtain now, and it does not appear that grain width is an important tonal
factor in maple, however if there's a choice to be made when choosing maple, all other
things being equal, I'd pick the finer grained examples.


In both cases, straight grain is desirable; in the top, for appearance, and for stability in
maple, which tends to deform directly in relationship to non-uniformity.
Another factor to consider is the consistency of the grain. Though it's not usually a
structural defect, there's a definite prejudice against wood with widely-varying grain
width from inch to inch unless it's particularly attractive. A gradual and even change from
one side of a piece to the other edge is fine, though, and old violins often show a
considerable difference in grain width between the center seam of the top and the outer
edges (because of the way spruce trees grow, the widest grains are usually towards the
outside)."

[Thumpalumpacus]

After finish and an amplifier, I'd be hard-pressed to hear a difference, I imagine.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts:

Spacing of the hardline or grain count does reflect the forrest conditions but as others have said, is not a predictor of the sound quality of an archtop. Tight spacing is associated with old growth where trees compete for light and grow at a slower rate. The preference is aesthetic and historic.

There is tremendous overlap in physical properties such as density, long and short-grain stiffness between species such as Engelmann, Norway (E.g. Carpathian, Italian, German etc.), Red (Adirondack), and Sitka Spruces. Additionally, the plate carve and bracing can be adjusted to compensate for these differences. Recommending a top by species by inherent properties vs. an individual set by properties is not a predictor of sonic characteristics. More so in a factory guitar were tops are built and braced to dimension and no adjustment is made for the properties of the individual set on the bench.

Stiffness to density ratio along with radius of arch, thicknessing of the the top, how much release to the recurve and the type and treatment of the braces will determine its voice. I personally have no preference for a guitar based upon grain count. Lower grain count, varying grain count or compression grain do not matter to me. Visual runout is something that I do try to avoid as an aesthetic preference. I care mostly that the top was chosen by someone skilled in the art based on its potential and carved/braced to allow for it.

[Top of the Arch!]

The seller got insulted because you didn't buy his grain belief, so he took his guitar home, rather than sell it? Sounds like he was emotionally tied to the guitar...it amazes me how some people get so attached to their guitars.

Plus one for an AA...fabulous buys, but below $4k

It wasnt quite like that. It was more like he decide to stick to the asking price after he already said he would take less. But he knew how much cash I had before I got to his house. There was a coolness in the air after I told him "thats the kind of jive you get at G.C." . Bob

[h1pst3r88]

Sorry about your experience with the seller, Bob. If only you could buy the AA from yourself you would know you were buying from a great seller!

-Chris

[targuit]

I'd like to add a link to the issue of how woods change with age in wooden instruments like guitars. This may not directly address the question of tight versus wide grain woods but I think it is of general interest.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mCWqEsO6lpFDjQ

[2bornot2bop]

It wasnt quite like that. It was more like he decide to stick to the asking price after he already said he would take less. But he knew how much cash I had before I got to his house. There was a coolness in the air after I told him "thats the kind of jive you get at G.C." . Bob

And for your part, you were reluctant to bite your tongue? Clearly you must have known his ego would take offense, and no guitar sell was happening after that

[floatingpickup]

With flattop guitars the tradition goes back to classical instrument building. There, the preference is for the grain to be impossibly tight near the center seam, fanning out to wider grain towards the edges of the top--i.e., the upper and lower side of the top. This carried over with Martin and the other important flattop builders.

Archtop building more nearly follows violin making tradition. There, the top plate pattern is not so hard and fast. Still, you generally see the tight in the middle, fan out pattern. This is not always true and some of the exceptions have sounded pretty exceptional.

Still and all, I have found that the guitars that I have enjoyed most have had the tight grained in the center/loose grained at the edges pattern. D'Angelicos are like this. Gibsons are like this. My Unity 100th Anniversary Custom is like this. (It would be, it was made by the guy who built the very top of the line Gibson archtops and mandolins for years.) Heritages are like this.

I owned a Heritage Golden Eagle that had the wider grain in the center and the tighter grain at the edges. It always seemed to me that the plates were glued backwards. I am pretty sure every other carved archtop I have ever seen had the tighter grain in the center and wider grain at the edges. Was my Heritage made wrong, or is it acceptable to do it either way?
Keith

[Top of the Arch!]

And for your part, you were reluctant to bite your tongue? Clearly you must have known his ego would take offense, and no guitar sell was happening after that

Well I thought after we spoke on the phone he understood exactly what I wanted. I told him the biggest thing was how comfortable the neck felt and Id know after playing it for a few min. if it was going home with me. I would just need about 10 min. alone with it to know. He never stopped talking the whole time I played it, so I tried being as diplomatic as I could to make him stop talking by saying "I think I hear a slight buzz" dont make any noise, listen! As soon as I started to play he started with , I dont hear a buzz , youre hitting the strings too hard etc. At that point I said " maybe its just me" thats when he got into the tight grain thing, it went down hill fast after that. I actually like buying on line these days! Bob

[Top of the Arch!]

I owned a Heritage Golden Eagle that had the wider grain in the center and the tighter grain at the edges. It always seemed to me that the plates were glued backwards. I am pretty sure every other carved archtop I have ever seen had the tighter grain in the center and wider grain at the edges. Was my Heritage made wrong, or is it acceptable to do it either way?
Keith

Keith,the top on my GE is the opposite of yours, tight at the seam wider as it gets to the rims.Its barely noticeable but a bit wider. Bob

[floatingpickup]

Keith,the top on my GE is the opposite of yours, tight at the seam wider as it gets to the rims.Its barely noticeable but a bit wider. Bob

Yours is normal. Mine was backwards. I don't have it anymore, but I found a pic that shows the grain in the top.
Keith

[Top of the Arch!]

Thats a beauty! Mine plays super and is the only thin neck guitar I can play without getting cramps. If only I didnt have problems playing at all!! Bob

[Ol' Fret]

As others have pointed out, there is no strict rule of thumb which number of grain lines on a piece of spruce would provide the best tonal quality. Tone is subjective. Yet, theoretically, the way to go for power and projection is pushing the high end of material properties.
De facto it is much more complicated. Most luthiers will agree that you can make a good sounding archtop instrument from just about any wood. Just when they get pressed further about how to get the ultimate in power and projection, they often admit: "then you need very good wood!"
Good luthiers acquire(d) the scarce very good pieces of tone wood during their career, when- and wherever they got/get the chance to do so. Visually, it often was/is not the nicest wood, as seen from a "modern", sometimes mind dulling wood grading scale, but acoustically it was/is superior. Elmer Stromberg is said to have used spruce from old church doors, etc., and Artur Lang was able to work up spruce that was cut in the 15th century - even before Christopher Columbus reached the Americas...

Very good spruce often has a high speed of sound (LucchiMeter - of course, the masters "feel" and "hear" the wood and don't need technical devices), is properly cut (http://www.schleske.de/fileadmin/use...d_of_sound.pdf ), has dried for some years preferably in a natural way (hemicellulose degradation) and shows an acceptable stiffness-to-weight ratio.
Then, concerning the grain line number per inch, you can't compare the different spruce species: it is much harder to find a tight grain piece of European spruce than, for example, such a piece of Engelmann spruce.

Anyway, there is a reason why the old Italian master makers in the plain of the Po took the effort to get their spruce cut in certain remote, high level Alpine places, to bring it down to the sea level, dangerous to those hardworking men and horses, to raft it to Venice, where it was preprocessed and eventually distributed: such high altitude spruce that results in a tight grain near the center seam to fan out to wider grain towards the outside edges in a smooth way, is no longer to come by easy today.

In archtop guitar making, the development of pickups and amplification has considerably lowered the urge to select the acoustic qualities of the woods - to the delight of the guitar industries. It's up to the customers to educate themselves.



>> I owned a Heritage Golden Eagle that had the wider grain in the center and the tighter grain at the edges. It always seemed to me that the plates were glued backwards. I am pretty sure every other carved archtop I have ever seen had the tighter grain in the center and wider grain at the edges. Was my Heritage made wrong, or is it acceptable to do it either way? <<

If grain narrows noticeably at the outside edges, the tree diameter was smaller or the billet for the top was reversed. It could also depend on growing conditions, when the tree may have started in a crowded and shaded area that gradually became sunnier.

[Hammertone]

….Was my Heritage made wrong, or is it acceptable to do it either way?

Acceptable while drunk.
Either way is good:


There's something to be said for a bit of bearclaw as well:

[Barrie]

I have a Yamaha fg830 tight grain and a fs830 wide grain. Looks wise, I like the tight. Sound wise, I do not hear. I know tight grain will be stronger. I've come to the conclusion that its more looks. Why? If you look at real expensive guitars they go for Bear claw and as far as grain goes, thats a whole different animal so if it wasn't looks you would think $50,000.00 guitars would have a tight straight grain top. I think Tommy Emmanuel would know because he uses the grain like a washboard. My 2 cents.