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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid335
    Groyniad,
    You are a great writer, a funny guy and really know how to stir it up. I'll bite.

    I can't speak to Campellone, but comparing an Andersen or Comins to an L5 is like comparing beef to fish. Just because you prefer the fish (Gibson), does not cheapen the quality of the beef. Given the amount of red meat thrown out in the previous post, I am going to gather that you would have preferred that the Gibson be compared to the beef. Sorry, its fish. Its always been fish and will always be fish.

    I own an L5 and a couple of archtops with superior acoustic qualities. I MUST have the fish AND the chicken. I could tell myself that the chicken is so good that I don't need the smelly fish. However, sooner or later I'm going to want a nice big plate of Pescato Frito.

    "This Comins feels cheep and nasty"....said no person, ever!

    Oh man ..... I just don't like fish enough to call a Gibson a fish ... probably comes from growing up in land locked places like Tennessee

    Maybe Gibson is a classic American chicken and dumplings ... whereas a Campellone is a nice Fettuccini con Pollo ... and Benedetto is a nice spaghetti con aglio e olio ... a nice Hofner could be a lovely Rahmschnitzel

    LOL

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    The hallmark of pro players appears to be in many cases endorsements. Every one is good enough to make a plank sound great.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger

    American labor costs more than Chinese slave labor.
    Does anyone know the starting wage for someone on the Gibson factory floor? Maybe $9/hr?

    there seems to be a lot of info on the tyrannical working conditions under Henry J.

    For a company that's supposed to be world class and charges a premium for their guitars I would like to see the wealth distributed fairly among its workers. That's how a company builds loyalty and quality.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    The hallmark of pro players appears to be in many cases endorsements. Every one is good enough to make a plank sound great.
    The other side of that coin is that buying a $6k archtop is not going to make an amateur sound great. Imagine what a $1k ibanez and $5k worth of lessons and live shows would sound like!

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    The other side of that coin is that buying a $6k archtop is not going to make an amateur sound great. Imagine what a $1k ibanez and $5k worth of lessons and live shows would sound like!

    And as much as I love my Gibsons .. .



    Ibanez has some guitars for under $1K that sound darn good .....

    when you plug them into the right amp

  7. #56

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    Chinese labor costs are rising, too...

  8. #57

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    There are other great jazz guitars than those made by Gibson.

    There are superb handbuilt guitars from D'Angelico to Monteleone that rival the best Gibsons in every way. Vintage Epiphones and Guilds are superb guitars. IMO, Ibanez, of all the import (non-American) brands has done the best job, particulary with their Japanese built guitars (I am old enough to remember when Japanese guitars were lousy. That has most certainly changed over the last 50 years).

    Some may have a preference for other brands, and that is OK.

    When labor and the environment are protected and respected in China, I will be less of a critic of their products.

    People who do well often have their detractors. I think Henry J. deserves kudos for pulling Gibson back from the brink.

    When I go to my gig tonight, there will be a guitar in my hands that says Gibson on the headstock. Just as there was on my gig last night. And the night before that. I bought my first Gibson in 1974 (a used 1970 ES-175 that cost me $330, which was a financial struggle for my then 16 year old self) and have owned a Gibson guitar (today I own 6 of them) ever since.

    For those who understand the magic of the Gibson guitar, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't (assuming they have played one), no explanation is possible.

  9. #58

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    This economics stuff is tricky...my last Subaru (WRX) was made in Indiana, and my last 2 BMW's made in Spartanburg, SC.

    Anyway, back OT I have had 2 Gibsons, a 1980's era 175 and a mid-2000's 135. They were both well-made instruments. The 135 in particular is a real gem and a real bargain. (Though admittedly a 175 bought for $900 in 1981 sounds a lot better than one at current prices...)

    Over the weekend I decided to take several of my guitars out for a spin. These included a 1960's Harmony (US), 2000's Fender partscaster (original body MIM I'm told, but now with a Paulownia body probably from Asia, Warmoth MIA neck, SD pickups), Gibson ES-125 and Peerless Sunset (Korea). It was quite fun to reconnect with all these guitars, in particular the Fender, having neglected the poor girl for awhile.

    I really like the Gibbie. It has a restrained attractiveness with simple appointments, binding, etc. It does what it does and does it well. I can't help but think of a Gibson as an aspirational instrument for a lot of us. I'm glad I have one in the harem.

    My original plan was to sell the Peerless when I got the Gibson. However, much as I try, I cannot find the Peerless to be one whit less wonderful than the Gibson. It is just a beautiful guitar to look at and to play. It has more attractive cream multi-ply bindings. It is super-light. I find Korean guitars like Peerless and Samick to have the most comfortable necks of any.

    So I guess my point is that there are a lot of good guitars out there. I have liked and will always like Gibsons, but I agree that the current new archtops are priced too high for my taste. There are so many economical alternatives out there that one can't feel bad for the "working musician".

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    The other side of that coin is that buying a $6k archtop is not going to make an amateur sound great. Imagine what a $1k ibanez and $5k worth of lessons and live shows would sound like!
    I take your point here, but as one who taught guitar some, and as a long-term serious amateur player, I believe that the non-master needs a really nice instrument. Sure, Kenny Burrell could make a cigar-box guitar sound great.

    News Flash: I am not Kenny Burrell. I can't make a cigar-box guitar sound great. But if my ability is limited, it's hurt even more if I have to fight the guitar just to play. Or if I play well, to have a guitar that creates a B- tone isn't very rewarding.

    But when I get it right on my Gibson, the message is multiplied. People miss a step walking through the store if I'm playing there. They turn around and look.

    It isn't me. It was just an EbMaj9 chord. Played on a Gibson.

  11. #60

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    I can only echo what Lawson has said. I love Gibson guitars. I do think they are overpriced. I also have bought several really nice Gibsons lately and the dream guitar that I'm saving for is an L5. There really is something ineffable (pixy dust) about them. Can't tell you what it is. My Guild Benedetto has it in spades, but ALL of my Gibsons have it. I play better on them because they just feel and sound better than most of my other guitars.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by kid335
    Groyniad,
    You are a great writer, a funny guy and really know how to stir it up. I'll bite.

    I can't speak to Campellone, but comparing an Andersen or Comins to an L5 is like comparing beef to fish. Just because you prefer the fish (Gibson), does not cheapen the quality of the beef. Given the amount of red meat thrown out in the previous post, I am going to gather that you would have preferred that the Gibson be compared to the beef. Sorry, its fish. Its always been fish and will always be fish.

    I own an L5 and a couple of archtops with superior acoustic qualities. I MUST have the fish AND the chicken. I could tell myself that the chicken is so good that I don't need the smelly fish. However, sooner or later I'm going to want a nice big plate of Pescato Frito.

    "This Comins feels cheep and nasty"....said no person, ever!
    you're right. i got carried away. my comins never felt that way. 'its almost as if the gibson made those guitars feel cheep and nasty' would be better (but still a bit strong).

    i bet in five years time i'll want another andersen or comins etc. (and the campellones were all super too - very super).

    but fish..?

    damn beefy fish if you ask me
    Last edited by Groyniad; 05-09-2016 at 03:28 PM.

  13. #62

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    Any time someone I know tells me they're looking at a Gibson or a Fender, I tell them to play every one in the store. The quality is just so variable. Fender has gotten a lot better, and right now, they're pretty consistently good. Gibson is still very hit or miss. When Gibsons are good, they're sublime.

    For my own part, I don't think I'd spend a lot of money on a Gibson, unless I found one that REALLY spoke to me. I'm sufficiently infatuated with my Ibanez, that I can't see paying Gibson prices.

  14. #63

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    i played 5 new L5s across two stores and every one was just wonderful - and each one sounded basically the same just with less and less acoustic freshness as they got more electrified (i.e. going from an L5 p to an L5 wes to 3 L5 CES).

    i was really impressed by how consistent they were. the sound and feel was pretty much the same with each guitar.

    it seems to me that the level of finish is the same as with e.g. a Comins Classic or Andersen Model 17 or Campellone Special (i've had these instruments) - but the shading and coloring and the design itself seems to me to be much much more effective and striking. i've been very very smitten by the boutique offerings. they make the guitars look much more like classical instruments - and that is amazing. but the gibson art deco thing is just uber-cool - it looks jazz-cool to my eye - it looks like something made for the blues and the night.

    so from a purely cosmetic point of view they are very very strong competitors to their boutique rivals.

    so if a new comins classic is 9500 (it may be more) then to be able to get an L5CES or WES for 8500 (i did a lot better than that) is very very good value.

    i think its amazing that a massive company like gibson can produce the number of L5s they do and make them to that sort of standard (that is - the standard of a master luthier working alone with enough time) at that price, and with that sort of consistency in their sound and feel.

  15. #64

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    Sometimes it seems like Japan gets Gibson's best stuff ....

    The US gets the second best, but still pretty good stuff ..

    And Europe and the UK get the Gibson drabs that Guitar Center rejects ... at least that's what I think when I read Archtopheaven's posts

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg
    Sometimes it seems like Japan gets Gibson's best stuff ....

    The US gets the second best, but still pretty good stuff ..

    And Europe and the UK get the Gibson drabs that Guitar Center rejects ... at least that's what I think when I read Archtopheaven's posts

    This is what I was told in person by Hanks the biggest Gibson importer in the country (uk). To quote

    "Yeh I used to get acoustic Gibson's arrive and we would send about 70% of them back. I know they didn't take them back to be smashed up, they forced them onto smaller shops with less clout outside the city. I feel really sorry for the suckers who bought those dogs and the shops that had to sell them"

    Many shops sell Gibson for the huge mark up. Its like a rigged game between Gibson and the Gibson sellers. All talk them up, sell them up and go home in a porsche.
    Meanwhile I'm looking at a rushed guitar with poor QC that Im being told is worth £3000

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    People get annoyed about minor fit and finish stuff---still it is the Gibson sound that is the real value, and distinction of the brand. If someone ever reverse engineers them, and figures out their sound formula, they are in trouble---the U.S. will never be the low cost producer. (For a long time the French monopolized high quality Red Burgundy...but frankly the quality control was spotty...some bottles were watery...I would splurge and pay $40 for just OK red burgundy and feel victimized. Also,the weather was inconsistent, and basically 1 in 3 vintages was good, whereas for Bordeaux it is more like 2 out of 3, and a lot more Red Bordeaux was, and is, produced. Basically, there was a lot less risk....now guitars with minor setup issues can be fixed....bad or disappointing bottles of wine cannot be....people just get annoyed. Now many areas of the world successfully grow the Pinot Noir (red burgundy) grape, and for a long time they could not....the French Burgundy producers I think have lost their edge, and are no longer as profitable as they once were. I no longer buy Red Burgundy...but there are now damned fine growers from Oregon and other locations.

    I think you over rate the gibson sound although I agree to some level. To say all Gibsons have a Gibson sound is to admit or accept that sound is also crap as well as awesome. Some of the worst sounding guitars I have played are gibson, so how do we square that circle?
    There is a Gibson sound but to state it has value that cant be touched by poor QC, over pricing and competition is optimistic imo.

    Gibson are going down, I give it 10 years before they sell to someone else. To say Gibson would disappear completely, is as you pointed out, not happing.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 05-09-2016 at 05:21 PM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I think you over rate the gibson sound although I agree to some level. To say all Gibsons have a Gibson sound is to admit or accept that sound is also crap as well as awesome. Some of the worst sounding guitars I have played are gibson, so how do we square that circle?
    There is a Gibson sound but to state it has value that cant be touched by poor QC, over pricing and competition is optimistic imo.

    Gibson are going down, I give it 10 years before they sell to someone else. To say Gibson would disappear completely, is as you pointed out, not happing.

    We square the circle by accepting that no one hits the ball out of the park every time ... or sometimes even the best make an own goal .. or whatever your favorite reference is

    In the end its all subjective

  19. #68

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    And I've certainly played some lousy Gibsons that just didn't have what I like about Gibsons ... I didn't buy them

    Most of the 60s Gibson archtops I've played were rather disappointing


    When they're good, though .. they are my favorite ... so far

  20. #69

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    Here is a video of my friend Andreas Oberg playing my 96 L-5 Wesmo (I am playing rhythm on my Maple Dupont Gypsy guitar next to him. He was also using a Polytone Mini-Brute amp that I owned back then). Andreas told me that it was one of the best archtops he had ever played. I bought it used in 2002 for just under $3100 from a music store in Kansas.



    While it is true that Andreas could make a cigar box with strings sound good, the Gibson does sound great. I have used it on a lot of gigs and she has picked up a few dings along the way, but this guitar will not be for sale as long as I am on this side of the astroturf...

  21. #70

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    very SWEET !!! Not to mention the guy on your right too.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Archie,

    You remain my favorite Gibson basher on this forum.

    Your opinion counts with me, even when you are wrong.

    On one hand a gibson bash is acceptable and valid but inspite of what I say, I can tell you honestly that I respect your choices and I respect the choices of all you guys, Joe, Vinny, B2, others of course.
    You know what good tone is, I can hear that in your videos, I can see it in your weapons of choice.

    I tread a fine line here I dont want you guys to be offended. A good Gibson is unbeatable we all know that, thats like a given. perhaps i just need to remind you guys that I haven't forgotten that!

    Im a perfectionist; an A-hole and if Patrick were here, he'd say the same thing.

    Anyway i haven't said anythning bad about Gibson in months... ok that 275 thread like last week

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg
    And I've certainly played some lousy Gibsons that just didn't have what I like about Gibsons ... I didn't buy them

    Most of the 60s Gibson archtops I've played were rather disappointing


    When they're good, though .. they are my favorite ... so far

    That sums up my feelings exactly. You should become my spokesperson, I need some PR
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 05-09-2016 at 06:41 PM.

  24. #73

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    Rich.....we love you man ! Don't forget I have been known to bash Gibson's QC.

  25. #74

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    Thanks Tal

    Yeh you are bang on point, I highly trust your comments reviews, always have.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 05-09-2016 at 07:01 PM.

  26. #75

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    No no no, we buy them cheap and then bash them for once being too expensive for the quality ;-))

    Or someone gets a good one and we bash the other ones.

    It's complicated, I'd best stay clear