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  1. #101

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    Ok, I have wanted to post here for awhile, but have restrained myself due to not wanting to be banned from here...lol. Stringswinger, you really started one here...lol.

    A few simple points from a very Conservative right wing individual with a degree in Political Science specializing in Theo-Politics, and a Masters in Military Science, that took an oath to defend my Country and my Constitution from enemies foreign AND domestic, who spent 29 years in Special Operations in the Intelligence community, and has seen things, done things, and know things that I cannot EVER talk about, and obviously PROUD to be an American, and buy American whenever and wherever I can....

    A guitar is basically 6 strings over wood(usually) with a couple of things to control sound...pots, switches, whatever. You need to buy the one that you can justify affording that will meet your needs for sound, looks, and feel. A guitar YOU can justify, not anyone else. Yes, I will ask opinions here as I trust you guys knowing I will get differing opinions, but as long as they are based on fact, and not pre-conceived prejudices. I have guitars that are American, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Canadian. I have a couple partscasters that are true mutts, parts from who knows where...but a guitar is a guitar. Yes, I will be getting a Heritage, and I have a Gibson on lay-away, but only because I want them for what they are to ME, and not where they were built.

    Motorcycles are fun toys to have. I have been riding Harley's since 1983, not a yuppie look-at-me newcomer hoping to impress girls through some mid-life crisis bulls&**%. I have owned BMW's since 1980, always the GS models starting with the first one, the GS80. I currently have sold all of my motorcycles to pay for my cancer surgeries and follow up treatments, and next bike will be either a Triumph or a Victory...too many frauds riding Harleys nowadays with new tatoos riding sleeveless to look all bad ass. Posers...

    Politically, unless an individual has truly read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, they only know what mainstream media wants them to know. If an individual crticizes this country that lives in another country, I really don't care about their opinion. Yes...Trump...not my first choice, but at this point the absolute best choice for a few reasons....of course the "anybody but that felonious fraud Hillary" reasoning...but also because our ENEMIES DO NOT WANT TRUMP! They all wanted Obama, and look what we got...

    So, if I am still allowed to participate on these forums after this post, I really do need an opinion on a couple of things...lol. Threads to be posted in a little while...

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  3. #102

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    My 3 Gibsons are great instruments (in my opinon) and well within my reasonable price limit.
    You can play a Gibson for a very reasonable price (my limits are 2K for solid body and 4K for Arch Top)
    I've got the tone and playability I was aiming for and could not be happier and yes I also got the headstock...
    Are they perfect ? No but they are where it matters for me!

  4. #103

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    Frank,

    I have been riding Harley's and playing Gibsons since the 70's. I know what I like, and IMO, I play and ride the best. I plan on being around another 30-40 years and Harleys and Gibsons will be with me for the rest of the journey. I am pretty familiar with the Constitution and the Federalist papers (having practiced law fulltime for 15 years). Well worth reading for all of the world's citizens for sure.

    I do think that it is appropriate to consider the political environment that a product is manufactured in. If it was possible, I would buy zero products from places like China and Vietnam (or Saudi Arabia for that matter). When we purchase products made in places run by tyrannical leaders, we do, to some extent, support tyranny.

    In any discussion about which guitar to buy, this merits consideration. To ban this discussion because of the risk of offense to those who are thin-skinned is a form of tyranny, in and of itself.

    Thank you for your service to America. Our veterans deserve much more gratitude than they receive.

    Cheers,

    Marc

  5. #104

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    I dont think it's as easy as saying, Gibson are selling well so they aren't over priced.

    According to Gibson's own prices they are over priced, as the margins are highly flexible. They use the classic trick of over pricing then letting you 'have a deal'. This in itself s disshonest behaviour and encourages shops and retailers to act in a non professional manner, if they so chose.
    They also have the retailers backs, as again, if you can sell Gibson's you can make more money due to the shadiness of the prices.

    So what you end up with is big stores with a lot of marketing clout pushing guitars from gibson that they have a further vested interest with. You're basically being attacked by two entities before you've even walked into a big chain.

    Gibson also act like mafioso pushing small shops around, threatening them, making them take second rate stock or owe their retailers position which a ship cannot do, as it will pass the business over to a competior.

    What Im saying is, Gibson doesnt act fairly or treat is associates fairly and all this leads to lack of transparency to the buyer.

    In 2012 Gibson cooked their books to show greater sales, dumping thousands of unwanted Gibsons on the retailers. They were being sold for peanuts. So if you think Gibson are doing well and selling huge, you will never really no. Gibson will just one day announce the end and all you guys would have been thinking "I thought it was going so well"

    Look at tall the stock they had to dump from last year.

    Things at Gibson's are not going well at all. I'll give them 5-10 years.

    I mean come on, how many more reproductions of the 59 less paul for $11,000 are they gonna sell. Im betting that market fired up pretty quick.

  6. #105

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    Thanks Marc, and I wasn't pointing out you in my response, it was a general response. As to Harleys, you know what I mean about the majority of the "new" harley owners...not all of them, but a lot of them. Makes me laugh sometimes. I was thinking about the new Roadglide, but financially will have to stay well below that for another year or two...so, just to get back to riding was thinking about grabbing a Triumph Scrambler. Not too expensive, but at least not trying to be a Harley look alike. A golf buddy wants to trade me a 2012 1200 Sportster he doesn't ride anymore for one of my sniper rifles...I am 6ft and built like a fullback...I will look like a circus bear on a tricycle on that thing!

    I agree, if it was possible to never buy from certain countries, but...maybe one day soon.

    Gibson...have gone through 13 Les Pauls in the last 8 months...keep taking them back. Gawd awful...for the ultimate in getting what you pay for, my buddy plays jazz professionally, and he has Epiphone Les Pauls, who Les himself said are the true Les Pauls, and changes the wiring harness and pickups, and I keep trying to steal one of his. Somehow and for some reason, whenever I go to his house he takes Epiphone Les Paul inventory before I leave...WTF...lol. I think I am going to have him do a Korean Epi LP that I have and see what happens. Yet, I have a Gibson ES-137 on layaway, I just love how it sits in my lap, how my hands find the fretboard, and how I can get MY jazz sound out of it. Not many people on here would think "ES-137-the ultimate jazz box", but considering my friends call my sound "denim Jazz" or "cowboy surf jazz", it works for me...as does my Epi Wildkat...lol.

  7. #106

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    Headshot and Stringswinger
    You guys are WAAAYYY above my league and I am really enjoying the back and forth between 2 absolute gentlemen.
    Headshot, Thank you for your service to our great country. I really mean it. One of the things that folks don't usually factor into why our labor costs are so high here in the US is that as a country we use a lot of our resources (taxes) being the police of the world. I am so fortunate to be American and I am proud to be born into a society that no matter what, always tries to do what's right.

    I don't ride Harleys though.. I prefer Cannondales..

    Joe D.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    Judging from the following video, high prices don't seem to bother German players much.

    "Eddie, dude by the name of 'Harris', they loved you more in Paris..."

    Yes.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    I am grateful for my Gibsons (none are 'luxury' models) and I am grateful for my
    other, mostly cheaper stuff from Indonesia, Korea, China & Japan.

    For guitar lovers we live in great times for access to good stuff.
    We also have more than a few great living guitar players going.

    Let's enjoy ourselves while we can.
    Well said. It's a great time to be a guitarist. There are so many choices at good value. In 1968, I paid $3 for Black Diamond strings and thought I was getting something exotic. My old man saw me studying a Gretsch catalog as I was wanting a White Falcon. How much he wanted to know. Two thousand I said. He said oh. I dropped down to an Epiphone Sorrento. My local music store (only choice then!) wanted $350. I worked the summer for a buck forty an hour and bought Fender's Coronado , their response to the 335. $175 new included case. At 3% inflation, that Fender would be priced today at $800. We get a lot of value now partly because of lower priced labor and, I think, an oversupply of guitars on the world market and like Harley motorcycles, any baby boomer that wants one, has one. Result: low prices.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by goatrace
    It's a great time to be a guitarist. ... We get a lot of value now partly because of lower priced labor and, I think, an oversupply of guitars on the world market and like Harley motorcycles, any baby boomer that wants one, has one. Result: low prices.
    Production technology has improved. CAD-Cam and other techniques (laser cutting, etc.) have lowered production costs. Probably average standard quality has improved, and probably fewer lemons being produced, as well.

    I think the quality gap between high-end instruments and entry-level instruments has diminished greatly. Nowadays, some minor upgrades may be all it takes (if that) to make a lower cost instrument into a "contender". I'm not sure that was always true.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-10-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  11. #110

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    I checked some Heritages online today and thought wow, those are everything Gibson should be and isn't anymore. Stunningly beautiful guitars at a rational price, while the "reasonable" comparable Gibsons (~3.5-4.0k, Gibson prices start where Heritage prices end, roughly) looked cheap, almost as if botched on purpose, in comparison.

  12. #111

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    Im told it is a Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times"

    in the early 70's I worked at a newspaper..one of the front page stories read "world population hits Three Billion"

    gas was 30-40 cents a gallon and you could buy a lot of groceries for $25

    gibsons and fenders were the main instruments in almost all the bands I saw in those days

    all that has changed..and never to be again-- today I have TWO major products that are made in USA..one is the les paul..

    is it worth it...a Gibson that is...well..depends upon what your willing to spend and the present quality of the guitars

    in 2008 Gibson produced a Les Paul classic antique..retail $1799 with case (+tax & shipping =2k+)..great fit & finish..was I lucky or did the one made before and after have the same quality in the build..reviews from several sites - not gibsons - give it top marks..who knows for sure .. I love this one

    had a pro setup on it ($25) .. and it still is my workhorse..jazz blues fusion country and rock of course

    are there better guitars like it...of course..there are many brands now that did not exist 10-15 yrs ago that make great guitars..many top players use them and many have custom guitars in the mold of a les paul or a strat or tele..

    remember .. "it is a poor worker that blames their tools.."

    would I buy it today...perhaps .. I would shop it against other brands in the same price range..

    next guitar: fender 2016 elite telecaster...$1700-w/case....many "custom made" tele-clones don't play/sound this good out of the box..and yeah I want a fender..so to me this is worth the price and I am willing to pay it..

    I hope..the workers at American guitar companies are cared for with good wages and bennies ..

    even in these economic trying times - I, like many here, want to believe American companies still cares about..well.. America
    Last edited by wolflen; 05-10-2016 at 04:18 PM.

  13. #112

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    I sold my Gibson and bought an Eastman, it´s better made and sounds better in my opinion regardless of where it is made or how much it costs. I also have a USA strat that is wonderful, have played awesome Gibsons and drive a Toyota that was made in the UK, just opened a Belgian beer, have friends who are working in Korea, japan and vietnam all of them are happy in their work, non of them is a republican but i also worked with a republican aircraft builder for a week around christmas, he was also a happy camper.

  14. #113

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    I see a parallel between Gibson and Harley Davidson.

    A history of ownership.
    Heavy
    Inconsistent quality
    More image than substance.
    Company run for the benefit of investors, and to enhance the stock value.
    Suit happy.

    I have owned a few Gibsons..
    46 J-45
    1922 Snakehead mandolin
    Late 60s Gibson Heritage
    WM-45
    etc

    As to bikes

    14 BMWs from 1965 t0 1990 ( the later the lower the quality and this is form a former BMW of No America Factory employee)
    2 Moto Guzzi LeMans
    5 Moto Morinis
    2 Bultaco Metrallas
    2 Montessas
    Benelli Tornado SS, not a wimpy S2
    DKW164
    NSU Super MAX
    Yamaha YDS2
    etc etc etc

    I have also owned in excess of 100 guitars and 50 mandolins.

    As to bicycles

    Pinarello prison made all chrome all Campy 1961...
    Girardengo 1962
    Guerciotti 81
    Somec all Campy 83 still own it
    Phillipe 1984 ish.. Modelo and Assos etc
    Phillips Fleur de Lis 1961
    Miyata Aero Pro (still have it.. mish mash of Suntour Superbe and Campy)

    Currently own the Somec and the Miytata Aero and a 1992 Cadex III all carbon and alloy
    2012 Rivendell Hunqapillar.. my all time favorite
    A shop full of "stuff" collected since 1959.

    I also own somewhere between 6-10 guitars
    one Banjo, a couple mandolins
    2 Self made cavaquinhos
    and 6 button accordeons dating from 1880 to present.
    Last edited by bohemian46; 05-10-2016 at 09:39 PM.

  15. #114

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    And Gibson is somehow responsible for the fact that the business of music, which formerly allowed a fair number of musicians to make a living pursuing what they liked to do, is in the toilet?!

    That's a bit much, don't you think?

  16. #115

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    Too bad nobody came up with a (good) explanation why the prices for Gibson archtops nearly doubled in the last five years. Must a company secret.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter
    Too bad nobody came up with a (good) explanation why the prices for Gibson archtops nearly doubled in the last five years. Must a company secret.
    The real increase at the street level is about 16% to 20% since 2011, barring the True Historic 33% pricing increment debâcle in 2015. Didn't Fabiansey just score a new Crimson Custom L5 Wes Montgomery Wine Red for under $5200 ex-VAT?

    A new 2011 L-5CES ASB was streeting for about $6850 in 2011. I could have got it for under $6500 in 2011. It streets for a little over $8000 today.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 05:42 AM.

  18. #117

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    There sure are a few examples of exceptional good deals even today. But the average price paid is a different story. At least here in Germany. The wine red Wes went from 4.5k to 7.5 - 8k in 5 years.

  19. #118

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    Why do Gibson archtops deserve their rarefied pricing? You cannot talk about any 17" carved archtop with two humbuckers in it without also saying, I wonder how it stacks up against the L-5CES?

    When you are the gold standard, you set your price like you are the gold standard.

    If you are a luthier you are sort of happy that Gibson sets the price that high. I cannot imagine how many luthiers will survive if the L-5CES were $3500 new and $2500 used today. There will be no Heritage, for that matter.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 05:58 AM.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter
    Too bad nobody came up with a (good) explanation why the prices for Gibson archtops nearly doubled in the last five years. Must a company secret.
    Like the archtop making grimoires and the rainbow dust they took with them when they left Kalamazoo. No doubt Heritage would charge the same if they had access to this secret knowledge.

  21. #120

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    Drifter, you gotta account for the weakened Euro. The Euro bought a lot more US dollars 5 years ago. What about the revised MwSt and import duty and rising labour costs? All those are the doings of governments, global currency movements and the European Gibson importer's business costs. Hardly the fault of Gibson. Gibson raises its Minimum Advertised Prices about 3% to 4% yearly. It has done away with MSRP since 2014.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 06:17 AM.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_d
    Like the archtop making grimoires and the rainbow dust they took with them when they left Kalamazoo. No doubt Heritage would charge the same if they had access to this secret knowledge.
    There is no secret knowledge. Heritage can only dream about pricing its archtops on par with Gibson's. Because Heritage knows, the market won't pay Gibson prices for Heritage guitars. Is the market stupid? Heritage won't sell a single archtop at Gibson prices.

    There was a guy named Drew who tried to sell off his Super Eagle in mint condition on the Heritage Owners Club. He started at $3200 and gradually had to whittle it down to $2600 before someone bought it. Even Heritage fan boys know not to pay too much for a Heritage. Tells you everything you need to know. That's a Super Eagle, the supposed 18" equivalent to the Super 400CES, made in the original home of Gibson. Yadda...

    If Heritage were undervalued, the market will recognise that and raise their prices on the secondary market.

    It is not because Heritage won't charge Gibson prices. Heritage can't. Fine archtops but they really aren't Gibsons. And I am not talking about the brand name on the headstock.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 06:31 AM.

  23. #122

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    Every Gibson discussion involves Heritage. It is like a shark with a remora stuck to its ass.

  24. #123

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    Is Heritage the G & L of the archtop world?

    Patrick, who used to be a Heritage rep., had an expression when it came to the similarity between Heritage guitars and their Gibson counterparts. He called it "not flying too close to Air Force One." (Air Force One, for non-American forum participants is the Presidential plane. Pretty sure it flies with fighter escort on many of its trips.)

    My old teacher, Peter Mazza, played a Heritage 535 as his ordinary "go to" guitar for practicing and teaching. He left his Gibson Super V home, and took it out for special occasions. I asked was it like a 335...and he said, it sort of is, but it is different.

    G & L guitars, built in the EXACT Fender plant in Fullerton, CA that Fender used in its golden days, by a company under the (former) direction of Leo F., builds instruments which are similar to, but not exactly the same as, their Fender counterparts. I have heard that Leo F. thought that improvements were possible in his original designs. Maybe this is true, but maybe there was an unspoken agreement with Fender. (Some of his later guitars hearken back to the older Fender designs: Anyway, some of his later designs, like the G & L Commanche, were interesting and maybe achieved something, soundwise, that a stock Strat could not).

    I have a Heritage 550, and it is superb. Got it 2nd hand from a forum member, and it beautifully constructed and appointed...all the trappings, natural finish, ebony bd., bound F-holes....the whole 9 yards, but more importantly it sounds great...rich, full articulate, with the laminate mid-range and slight dryness to the tone that is a defining feature of that type of construction. Would a Tal Farlow be different/better?..not quite sure....I'd have to A/B it in a store against the 550 before I made up my mind. If they are different, how much different, and is the price differential (roughly 50%) enough to sway me/you....different people will answer this question differently.

    I guess I have the same question with an L5-CES and an Eagle Classic.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-11-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    There is no secret knowledge. Heritage can only dream about pricing its archtops on par with Gibson's. Because Heritage knows, the market won't pay Gibson prices for Heritage guitars. Is the market stupid? Heritage won't sell a single archtop at Gibson prices.

    There was a guy named Drew who tried to sell off his Super Eagle in mint condition on the Heritage Owners Club. He started at $3200 and gradually had to whittle it down to $2600 before someone bought it. Even Heritage fan boys know not to pay too much for a Heritage. Tells you everything you need to know. That's a Super Eagle, the supposed 18" equivalent to the Super 400CES, made in the original home of Gibson. Yadda...

    If Heritage were undervalued, the market will recognise that and raise their prices on the secondary market.

    It is not because Heritage won't charge Gibson prices. Heritage can't. Fine archtops but they really aren't Gibsons. And I am not talking about the brand name on the headstock.
    I read that story as the market will not pay Gibson prices for a guitar that is comparable or better than a similar Gibson. Therefor, Gibsons are well over priced based on name.

  26. #125

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    I will make no apology for my pride in Gibson guitars (and Harley-Davidson motorcycles). If some are off put by my feellings about American exceptionalism (ethnocentrism ?), then we will have to agree to disagree.

    The Gibson Super 400, L-5 and Es-175 are the Platinum, Gold and Bronze standards by which all other archtops are judged and are priced accordingly.

    One area of jazz guitar where another Nation holds the Gold standard is the Selmer style guitar (AKA Gypsy guitar or Maccaferri guitar). France's Selmer Company brought this guitar to the market in the 1930's (production ceased in the 1950's). The best (and most expensive) examples today are built by Dupont Guitares, a French Company. American efforts in this area have been good to excellent (from Dell Arte through Bob Holo's fine guitars), but ecen the best Holo guitar will not fetch the price of a Dupont Ville Reserve. And nor should it. Were I a Frenchman, I would take great pride in the luithery of Dupont (and JP Favino, another French maker whose work exceeds any American made example, both in quality and price).

    Sports cars? The Italians win there with Ferrarris. Luxury cars? Britain takes the prize (hard to beat a Rolls...)

    It is hard to be humble when you are the best, and I do not think being humble is all it is cracked up to be. Man's greatest achievements were rarely made by humble people.
    Last edited by Stringswinger; 05-11-2016 at 10:44 AM.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    There is no secret knowledge. Heritage can only dream about pricing its archtops on par with Gibson's. Because Heritage knows, the market won't pay Gibson prices for Heritage guitars. Is the market stupid? Heritage won't sell a single archtop at Gibson prices.

    There was a guy named Drew who tried to sell off his Super Eagle in mint condition on the Heritage Owners Club. He started at $3200 and gradually had to whittle it down to $2600 before someone bought it. Even Heritage fan boys know not to pay too much for a Heritage. Tells you everything you need to know. That's a Super Eagle, the supposed 18" equivalent to the Super 400CES, made in the original home of Gibson. Yadda...

    If Heritage were undervalued, the market will recognise that and raise their prices on the secondary market.

    It is not because Heritage won't charge Gibson prices. Heritage can't. Fine archtops but they really aren't Gibsons. And I am not talking about the brand name on the headstock.
    Gibson's marketing budget is probably bigger than all of Heritage. I love heritage. All my archtops are Heritage.

    Marketing can make people do and think crazy things...like buy expensive vodka or vote for...wait...never mind

  28. #127

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    Earlier in this thread, it was pointed out that Gibson has techs that do setup work on their artist program guitars. They need to do this. The Artist gets the guitar directly from Gibson and has no dealer to provide this service (which the dealer is supposed to provide.....part of the dealer profit should go to providing this service).

    Of the 22 Gibson guitars that I have owned, I only bought 2 brand new. One was bought from Michael's Music in New York and was setup perfectly. The other was bought from an Illinois dealer (who I won't name here) and the setup was not great. I think that buying from GC or MF probably brings a lot more Gibson bashing than buying from Wildwood or Dave's.

  29. #128

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    If one gets a significantly lower price from GC or MF, one should be prepared to pay a bit more to get the setup done. You generally do not get to have your cake and eat it too.

    If people are unwilling to pay for quality, well, they won't be playing Gibsons. ;-)

  30. #129

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    @2B, Why did you sell the Gibsons? Was it financial? Or were none of them keepers for other reasons.

    I have sold 16 of the 22 Gibsons for different reasons. Back in my younger days when money was tight, I had to sell a guitar to buy a guitar. If I could have my 1970 175, my 1968 335 and my 1963 SG back, especially for what I sold them for, I would. A couple were sold because I did not like them after playing for awhile. The rest? I sold them to trade up.

    I had one dog, a 2008 175 that had a less than perfect neck, but probably could have been fixed with a refretting and a plane.

    All in all, they have been pretty fine guitars. I remain a fanboy.
    Last edited by Stringswinger; 05-11-2016 at 08:45 PM.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    @2B, Why did you sell the Gibsons? Was it financial? Or were none of them keepers for other reasons.

    I have sold 16 of the 22 Gibsons for different reasons. Back in my younger days when money was tight, I had to sell a guitar to buy a guitar. If I could have my 1970 175, my 1968 335 and my 1963 SG back, especially for what I sold them for, I would. A couple were sold because I did not like them after playing for awhile. The rest? I sold them to trade up.

    I had one dog, a 2008 175 that had a less than perfect neck, but probably could have been fixed with a refretting and a plane.

    All in all, they have been pretty fine guitars. I remain a fanboy.
    No, they each arrived one after the other in my guitar search...first a pair of Lucilles, soon followed by a dream of a '98 CES, a '73 Super 400, and a few weeks later an '05 Hutchins WES, ending with a blonde '01 Hutchins CES. I couldn't bond with the '01 CES...it sounded nothing like the '98 CES...I preferred the '98, but I reluctantly moved it to afford the Super 400 that availed itself weeks later...it was at a price I couldn't refuse so I bought it blind...at the time I was knee deep in other gear, so something in my retirement budget had to give...hind site is 20/20...of all the Gibsons the '98 had the smokey tone I'd imagined Gibson jazz archtops possessed. But to be truthful, I was still too deep in my desire to sample some of everything...now that my sampling phase has ended there's a few guitars I'd like to have back...as to an electric archtop it would for sure be the '98 CES...it was sunburst too, which is my preference.

    No one here appreciates your 'fanboydom' more than me. If you're gonna own an archtop to play plugged in jazz, why not a Gibson. They're not ultra expensive used...even today...if one looks, they can find one in the $5-$6k range...I'll eventually track down a CES in sunburst to keep...I'm going through another keyboard phase of late so I've not been playing as much. Thanks for asking...no hard feelings I hope...none here.

  32. #131

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    While Gibson's 'quality' can be questioned, their fit and finish might not be up to boutique standards on some models, and they setup guitars poorly - what can't be questioned is that Gibson has some of the best, and most imitated, guitar models made. Gibson has been innovating and building for close to 100 years and in that time they have introduced new designs, refined designs that worked and abandoned designs that didn't.

    What Gibson sells today are iconic designs with signature sound and feel that are the culmination of 100 years of being an industry leader. They may not be your 'cup of tea' but Super 400, L5, L5-CES, ES-335, ES-175, ES-350, Les Paul, Flying V, Destroyer, J45, Hummingbird, etc. are instruments that have changed and defined music

    Nothing looks quite like a Gibson, nothing feels quite like a Gibson and nothing sounds quite like a Gibson.


    Damn! Now I'm gassing for a Gibson flattop!
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 05-12-2016 at 01:57 AM.

  33. #132
    destinytot Guest
    Gibson re-sale value was/is a big plus for me. (I've owned two and sold them on; they weren't right for me, but I agree that they're absolutely excellent guitars.)

  34. #133

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    Quick and innocent question: Does the Gibson company own low end brands (Epiphone etc) that they outsource to non US factories and sell in the US market ?

  35. #134

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    While they can't quite move the spirit like a vihuela or an oud, any Gibson or even a good ukelele makes a wonderful souvenir for the kids after a holiday in the States.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    While Gibson's 'quality' can be questioned, their fit and finish might not be up to boutique standards on some models, and they setup guitars poorly - what can't be questioned is that Gibson has some of the best, and most imitated, guitar models made. Gibson has been innovating and building for close to 100 years and in that time they have introduced new designs, refined designs that worked and abandoned designs that didn't.

    What Gibson sells today are iconic designs with signature sound and feel that are the culmination of 100 years of being an industry leader. They may not be your 'cup of tea' but Super 400, L5, L5-CES, ES-335, ES-175, ES-350, Les Paul, Flying V, Destroyer, J45, Hummingbird, etc. are instruments that have changed and defined music

    Nothing looks quite like a Gibson, nothing feels quite like a Gibson and nothing sounds quite like a Gibson.


    Damn! Now I'm gassing for a Gibson flattop!

    Pretty much all the models you named there were designed pre 1960. I've said this before but Gibson's output as a company since then has been almost none existent.
    Most of the new models they tried to introduce since then failed miserably, the company whoring the name went bust and another stepped in to do exactly the same.

    I dont even want to use the word Gibson to talk about Gibson anymore.

    Gibson 1.0 has always been the finest
    Gibson 1.1 was a dissater
    Gibson 1.2 Is a disaster (especially after last year)

    At what point for the last 50 years has companies gorging on the Gibson name been any good?

    Time and time again Gibson lives on because of the great things done so many generations ago and no i'm not talking about the fine builder that have been there, they are still making guitars designed in 1950.

    if your only redeeming quality is that Gibson 1.2 designed the 'midtown' then my point is only proven further.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I have no interest in the subject of this thread anymore, but I'm alwas looking for inspiration and something new, so please tell us what guitars you favor
    The Cost of a Gibson-godin_5th_ave_jazz_natural_flame_hg_035069000040_a-jpg

    The Cost of a Gibson-heritage_h575_bvs_close2-jpg

  38. #137

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    J-Dub. Don't use the Heritage forum as the established market value for a Super Eagle. It's a place where most Heritage archtops sell at a minimum if they sell at all. It's a place to list a free archtop ad for internet exposure. That place is not now nor has it ever been a popular place to maximize the value of any archtop for the demand for archtops is very minimal there.

    Regarding the value of SE's their actual selling prices vary greatly. I know someone whose sold nearly 10 SE's at or near $4k. But as always to sell any used guitar and maximize price one has to be patient and have an exceptional item and ad. Sometimes it's just dumb luck.

    There are one off minimum sells on most anything. An L5CES at $2700, a Super 400 at $4k, a Hutchins WesMo for $4700, a Hutchins CES for $5500, but as we know those are outliers and don't reflect average market prices. Clearly there's no market value comparison between Heritage and Gibson guitars. That's obvious to anyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    There is no secret knowledge. Heritage can only dream about pricing its archtops on par with Gibson's. Because Heritage knows, the market won't pay Gibson prices for Heritage guitars. Is the market stupid? Heritage won't sell a single archtop at Gibson prices.

    There was a guy named Drew who tried to sell off his Super Eagle in mint condition on the Heritage Owners Club. He started at $3200 and gradually had to whittle it down to $2600 before someone bought it. Even Heritage fan boys know not to pay too much for a Heritage. Tells you everything you need to know. That's a Super Eagle, the supposed 18" equivalent to the Super 400CES, made in the original home of Gibson. Yadda...

    If Heritage were undervalued, the market will recognise that and raise their prices on the secondary market.

    It is not because Heritage won't charge Gibson prices. Heritage can't. Fine archtops but they really aren't Gibsons. And I am not talking about the brand name on the headstock.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Pretty much all the models you named there were designed pre 1960. I've said this before but Gibson's output as a company since then has been almost none existent.
    Most of the new models they tried to introduce since then failed miserably, the company whoring the name went bust and another stepped in to do exactly the same.
    I dont even want to use the word Gibson to talk about Gibson anymore.
    Gibson 1.0 has always been the finest
    Gibson 1.1 was a dissater
    Gibson 1.2 Is a disaster (especially after last year)
    At what point for the last 50 years has companies gorging on the Gibson name been any good?
    Time and time again Gibson lives on because of the great things done so many generations ago and no i'm not talking about the fine builder that have been there, they are still making guitars designed in 1950.
    if your only redeeming quality is that Gibson 1.2 designed the 'midtown' then my point is only proven further.
    I love this place.
    What are your dates for phases 1.0, 1.1. and 1.2?

  40. #139

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    I would use the following dates:

    1.0 is pre 1966

    1.2 is post 1986

    There is no doubt that 1.0 is the best era but I think that fine examples can be found from 1.1 (Norlin/corporate era) and some of the best Gibsons ever have come from 1.2. (Henry J.)

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    I love this place.
    What are your dates for phases 1.0, 1.1. and 1.2?

    Haha well its crude I grant you.

    Gibson 1.0 1900-1955 (the original team kind of although ownership[ changed in the 40's?)

    Gibson 1.1 70's-80's (norlin)

    Gibson 1.2 mid 80's-now (this guy)

    And yes I know they have tried to build loads of new models post Gibson 1.0 but I'm not writing an essay every time I want to make a general point. And yes I know Gibson were bought out in the 40's too but Im making the point that construction seemed to have remained highly regarded until the mid to late 50's.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 05-12-2016 at 12:30 PM.

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Headshot
    why the hell do I want the Gibson ES-137 at my local Sam Ash?
    If its this one..
    The Cost of a Gibson-thumbfyx8398z-jpg

    That's an easy one. That is a GREAT guitar. It sounds great. It Plays great. It has a nice comfy handful of a neck, and it is very possibly the most sensible Jazz guitar you can get for playing out. I wish I had one myself. And, Oh I forgot to add, its a Gibson. You will ALWAYS find a buyer for it and you will get pretty close to what you paid for it, if you ever decide to sell it..

    Joe D.

  43. #142

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    I don't have any gibson guitar.
    My wish list is one or more of ...

    L5 or L5 WesMo
    ES-175 single humbucker or ES-165 Herb Ellis
    Pat Martino or ES-446
    ES-335

  44. #143

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    If I was looking for a Gibson and money was tight, I would choose the 335 Studio over the 135/137. The 335 will always be easier to sell when or if you want to trade up.

    The 335 is an iconic guitar, and set up properly with the right strings, they are all the jazz guitar anyone needs. They are pretty well respected in the rock/blues/country genres as well.

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Haha well its crude I grant you.
    Gibson 1.0 1900-1955 (the original team kind of although ownership[ changed in the 40's?)
    Gibson 1.1 70's-80's (norlin)
    Gibson 1.2 mid 80's-now (this guy)
    And yes I know they have tried to build loads of new models post Gibson 1.0 but I'm not writing an essay every time I want to make a general point. And yes I know Gibson were bought out in the 40's too but Im making the point that construction seemed to have remained highly regarded until the mid to late 50's.
    You neglect to mention the period between 1955 and 1970s when, in addition the newfangled "humbucking" pickup Gibson introduced in 1957 (rumour has it that they are really catching on), they also introduced:
    - ES-335 & variants
    - ES-330
    - Double-cutaway Specials and Juniors
    - SG & variants
    - L-4CES
    - Johnny Smith
    - Barney Kessel & variants
    - Epiphone Howard Roberts (the original one)
    - Flying V
    - Explorer
    - Reverse Firebird & variants
    - Melody Maker & variants
    - Dove
    - Hummingbird
    and many others.

    Gibson did introduce some other guitars during this period as well as those I have listed.
    While there is the inevitable dog in the bunch, all of the above are recognized by most players as great guitars in their own right.

    I'll make a general point as well:
    Perhaps you might want to reconsider your classification system.

    Some useful wiki information from regarding Gibson's ownership history:
    - In 1902 Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Mfg. Co, Ltd. was incorporated.
    - In 1944, Gibson was bought by Chicago Musical Instruments (CMI).
    - In 1969 by
    Panama-based conglomerate, Ecuadorian Company Limited (E.C.L.) that changed its name in the same year to Norlin Corporation.
    - Between 1974 and 1984 production of Gibson guitars was shifted from Kalamazoo to Nashville, Tennessee. The Kalamazoo plant kept going for a few years as a custom-instrument shop, but was closed in 1984.
    - In 1986, the company was acquired by Henry Juszkiewicz, David H. Berryman and Gary A. Zebrowski. Gibson is a privately held corporation.

    More general points to come.
    Last edited by Hammertone; 05-12-2016 at 03:16 PM.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Haha well its crude I grant you.
    Gibson 1.0 1900-1955 (the original team kind of although ownership[ changed in the 40's?)
    Gibson 1.1 70's-80's (norlin)
    Gibson 1.2 mid 80's-now (this guy)
    And yes I know they have tried to build loads of new models post Gibson 1.0 but I'm not writing an essay every time I want to make a general point. And yes I know Gibson were bought out in the 40's too but Im making the point that construction seemed to have remained highly regarded until the mid to late 50's.
    New models in the Gibson 1.2 period include many strange and failed models, and a pile of perhaps "so what" instruments, as well as the following instruments, which I think are widely recognized as excellent guitars in their own right:
    - ES-135 / 137
    - Johnny A
    - ES-275
    - CS-336 and variants
    - ES-339 and variants
    - ES-446
    - Pat Martino
    and a few more
    Last edited by Hammertone; 05-12-2016 at 03:16 PM.

  47. #146

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    Folks who claim that Gibsons are unaffordable are used to paying MSRP i.e. sticker price on everything...

    When I was asking circa 2011, a brand new Gibson L-5CES ASB was ~$850 more than a brand new Heritage Golden Eagle OSB, ~$6500 vs. ~$5650. Maybe that is a scandalous difference to some. To me, after weighing the pros and cons, negligible.

    Those who like Gibsons like Gibsons. Those who like Heritages like Heritages. Both companies make fine archtops, and their fair share of dogs when the planets are aligned i.e. not that often. Nobody deserves to be called a rube for choosing one over the other.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-12-2016 at 03:36 PM.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    If I was looking for a Gibson and money was tight, I would choose the 335 Studio over the 135/137. The 335 will always be easier to sell when or if you want to trade up.

    The 335 is an iconic guitar, and set up properly with the right strings, they are all the jazz guitar anyone needs. They are pretty well respected in the rock/blues/country genres as well.
    Good pickups.... So what are you laying out for with the pricier Gibson? With Fender it's always spec, but with Gibson it seems to be finish? Or have I got it totally wrong?

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Folks who claim that Gibsons are unaffordable are used to paying MSRP i.e. sticker price on everything...

    When I was asking circa 2011, a brand new Gibson L-5CES ASB was ~$850 more than a brand new Heritage Golden Eagle OSB, ~$6500 vs. ~$5650. Maybe that is a scandalous difference to some. To me, after weighing the pros and cons, negligible.

    Those who like Gibsons like Gibsons. Those who like Heritages like Heritages. Both companies make fine archtops, and their fair share of dogs when the planets are aligned i.e. not that often. Nobody deserves to be called a rube for choosing one over the other.
    Yes, but no one pays MSRP for a Golden Eagle, even new, and used GE's in superb condition do occasionally appear beneath $3k. And while finding a used L5, today, for less than $5k is possible, it's hardly the norm. Is it worth over $2k more to own an L5? Only a buyer can decide that for themselves...someone here once said, "you pays your money and make your choice."

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Good pickups.... So what are you laying out for with the pricier Gibson? With Fender it's always spec, but with Gibson it seems to be finish? Or have I got it totally wrong?
    For the most part with Gibson, the higher price just gets more bling, but at the highest price point, they often use rare woods that result in a lighter guitar.

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    For the most part with Gibson, the higher price just gets more bling, but at the highest price point, they often use rare woods that result in a lighter guitar.
    Oh yeah...4 sure!











    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 05-12-2016 at 04:57 PM.