-
Hi Gents,
Haven't been around for several weeks due to personal issues. Hope you're all well and prospering.
Since all of my guitars have set humbuckers, I have no idea what the performance characteristics of a floating humbucker are.
Could you please offer me some insight into what the differences in tonal character are?
Thanks.
-
02-29-2016 08:04 AM
-
I'm not so sure the difference is the pickup. I'd say it is the fact that you cut the top and install a heavy chunk of metal on it. I personally prefer set humbuckers for my style of playing. I love the sound of the late 50s 60s jazz recordings and is more of an electric sound opposed to what you get from an untouched top and a floater. With the set pickup you lose some of the dynamics in the spectrum. You lose some vibration and acoustics. All good things to me when looking for that electric archtop sound.
If your looking for a crisp acoustic tone with a full range of bass and treble with a lot of resonance go for the floater.
-
The pickup itself is, I think, becoming less and less an issue. Lots of floaters now are virtually the equivalent of a traditional PAF. The post above is right that the real issue is the resonance of the body generated by whether it is a freely vibrating acoustic instrument or having the set-in pickup. I'm hopelessly hooked on both. I love my Epiphone Broadway (L5-ces copy, laminated with 2 set-in humbuckers) through my Polytone, but I also have Peerless Monarch with a floater that sends me to dreamland too. A recent arrival, my ES165 is a laminate smaller body (16") with a set-in humbucker, but it sounds to my ear just amazing.
So there are certainly differences in sound. I also think that the type of pickup is not as important as how well the pickup is made. I replaced the stock Epiphone pickup on my Broadway with a Seymour Duncan Seth Lover, and the difference is wonderful. One of the hand-wound floaters, made by several of the big pickup winders, would be much better than most factory-made ones. All other things being equal, that is.
-
I would say otherwise - a lot of people discuss the differences between built-in and floating but I think pickup type (mini vs full paf) is more decisive than that. I have an arhctop with a full paf as a floater and it's the best of both worlds.. One of the tricks is to attach it to the neck instead of the pickguard, I believe. Mini humbuckers never sound as good as a full size humbucker imo.
-
I agree. I just dont think the smaller floaters have the same response as fully sized humbuckers.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
-
They both have their good qualities ...
A single set in neck pickup also has different qualities than a double pickup guitar ... i.e an L5WES vs an L5CES
In my experience my floaters are much more sensitive to the amp I am using ...
floaters can sound like crap in an amp that makes a set pup guitar sound great
But once you find the right amp(s) a floater can be quite nice
It's all win win IMHO
-
A great video from Soundpure gives you a pretty good idea:
-
My experience is only on a cheap and thick laminated spruce top called the Epiphone Emperor Regent.
I tried a couple floaters (stock, korean Kent Armstrong and Bartolini 5J) and could not get the thick and dark mid focussed tone I was aiming. It was always too boomy on the bass strings and the whole guitar sounding more like an amplified flat top. Problem was not the guitar but probably my expectations and I ended up routing a full humbucker to it with some relative success. A Vintage Vibe HCC was finally what gave me the best result in the end.
Some other guys were most successful with their Regent and left them stock.
I have heard some floater equipped L5 or Super400 and they were sounding much thicker and focussed than anything I could achieve.
I suspect floaters better work on thinner carved top and more acoustic centric guitar than on laminated.
-
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your insightful and informative comments.
Regards.
Fred
-
I agree with jorgemg1984. I think that pickups mounted to the finger rest versus the end of the neck (roughly speaking, Benedetto vs. Gibson Johnny Smith) makes a big difference in the tone.
-
One way to compare is to listen to the same pickup as a floater and as a set in. Here is Attila Zoller playing his signature guitar with a Zoller Shadow 48 floater.
Here is the same pickup, on nearly the same guitar, but as a set in.
-
I loved the sound of those Zoller pickups. They are punchier than I'm used to, but I'm wondering how much of that sound comes from the pickup and how much comes from the amp. How do these pups differ from your run of the mill humbucker?
-
Punchy is a good way to put it. I have a floating Zollar 48 on my Unity. It sounds wonderful.
Jim hall had one set into his D'Aquisto. Jimmy Raney used a Hofner with a floating Zoller.
-
lovely clean zoller hi-fi tone...epoxy encapsulated for no microphonics
great pickup for players who tweak their guitar contols
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 03-01-2016 at 11:58 AM. Reason: sp-
-
I'm no expert on this topic, but I have some comments.
There is a downside to floating pups. They have more space constraints and must be shallower to make clearance of the top. Another possible concern is that they are inherently less stable, especially if suspended from the pickguard.
As a generality, floating pickups tend to be less "hot" than mounted. The bobbins can't be very tall and the magnets can be cramped and smaller. But there are exceptions.
So my simple view of the universe is that there are electric guitars and there are acoustic guitars. There's no real point in having a thin, tuned top if you are going to weigh it down with a mounted pickup. Gibson long ago began thickening their tops on the CES models to reduce feedback and presumably toughen up the tops for routing and hardware installation. It may have also saved time on carving- I don't know. But some of the best sounds were created on these instruments when amplification was added. The tones tended to be dark but with a sparkle. That was the electric Spanish guitar.
The acoustic guitar with a pickup is in full bloom when heard live or when there is a mix of the acoustic and pickup sounds. There's nothing like it.
So here's an amplified (floating pup) acoustic guitar.
Here's mostly or completely acoustic.
Lastly, here's that electric sound. You need "sweet heat" in those pickups for that.
-
Those are great videos, Marty. They tell it all. They show that one sound is not better or worse than another. All the sounds--acoustic, amplified acoustic, and electric--have been used by great artists. You just have to decide which sound will help you express who you are as an artist.
-
Or you can just like them ALL and spend your whole life as a musical polygamist... which is what I do. I have one "investment" grade guitar, but the others are all copies--Epiphone Broadway, Loar LH650, Peerless Monarch. But I love them all. That Epiphone especially has "something" that I just love, and I know it's partly the set-in pickup. But I just love the differences among all my "children" as my wife calls them. Originally Posted by Chazmo
My first decision at practice or playing time is, "So, what guitar do I feel like using today..."
It's nice that we really don't have to choose just one. This is why I pity pianists. I mean, who can haul 2 or 3 pianos to a gig, you know?
-
MartyGrass really nailed down some good points, here. The archtop guitar comes in different flavors: (1) fully acoustic, carved body; (2) fully acoustic, carved, with suspended pickup; (3) carved body with set in pickups; (4) laminated body with set in pickups.
All four have their places in playing jazz. My favorite jazz sounds have come from artists using #2-#4, for the most part. Johnny Smith, it seems to me, just sold the world on carved-body archtops with one suspended pickup. His jazz tones were impeccable. OTOH, Charlie Christian and his proteges set the jazz world on fire with carved body guitars with a set in pickup. Then came Tal Farlow and the ES-350/Tal Farlow prototype. Wes is a Christian protege, but deserves his own category, to be sure. His use of the L-5CES equipped with a single pickup still has us running around trying to get "that sound."
I own all types, #1-#4. If I could only own one guitar it would be a #2: carved body archtop with suspended pickup. After that, I would say that #4 is indispensable. #3 is right between #2 and #4, but it is a very sweet spot--it puts you right in L-5CES territory. #1, for me, is a tool. I use it as someone else might use a flattop guitar. It's what I naturally pickup if I want to work out an idea, or play for five minutes. It's always there.
As far as pickups go, for a #2 guitar I would recommend a D'Armond Rhythm Chief. They simply sound fantastic. For #3-#4, I recommend Seymour Duncan SH-1 humbuckers in the neck position. I am less critical in the bridge position--don't use it much. However, I would also put in a plug for the Shadow SH-48 for #2 and the Shadow SH-49 for #3-#4. (the 49 is the epoxied into a pickup ring version of the 48) This shallow humbucker is great for every jazz guitar.
Like MG, I am no expert, but I do know what I like after all these years. OTOH, my opinions may be nothing but confirmation bias. I own what I own and may be interpreting things to favor the choices I have made--only human, after all.
-
Generally Floating pickups are used for acoustic carved solid wood archtops, where as mounted pickups are used for laminate archtops. Ex. L-4CES floater vs. ES-175 mounted p/up. There are exceptions both ways of course
ex/ L-5CES but uses much thicker top to support the p/ups. And an example the other way would be the Moll John Pizarelli model laminate archtop w/ floater.
-
Yeah, the Moll JP has some pretty thin laminates and is pretty lively, acoustically. It works well with the floater.
FWIW, The Heritage Super Eagles with set in pickups have thin tops when compared with, say, Gibson L-5CES or Super 400 CES guitars. Still, they are structurally stable and don't feedback badly. They also sound GREAT.
-
Humbuckers, or any pickup set into a guitar top in the usual manner will be prone to various mechanical noises as the top vibrates.
-
As a pro player who has examples of all 4 of the archtop types described in Greentone's post, I want to add one thing:
+1!
-
What choo talkin' 'bout Willis! Originally Posted by Greentone
-
2bop
I have been noticing that custom Super Eagle of yours for a year or so. Pretty sure it's my favorite SE. The extra depth has to make it sound good.
thin or thick top?
-
Feels like a normal SE to me. Like Lady Rose. Just not as pretty. Best playing one I've owned though. Has an acoustic voice too. She's a 2 in 1 really
Reply With Quote
Solo Performance good tunes
Today, 11:06 AM in The Songs