-
agree with its importance or not..almost every electric guitar by any maker has the polepieces of the neck pup at the 24th fret harmonic...no tools or measurements needed...just ears
obviously ibanez copied d'aquisto pup position...( his pup was at the 24th fret spot!) but neglected to factor in they increased the number of frets from 20 to 22...i can see joe asking for 22 frets and then asking why pup is in different place from d'aquisto..so best of both worlds..tho quite unique!!
cheers
-
02-16-2016 08:09 PM
-
Wasn't the co- designer of the guitar from England, and isn't he still alive? I believe his name was Maurice Summerfield.
Does anyone here know him?
-
mr summerfield
https://www.namm.org/library/oral-hi...ce-summerfield
cheers
ad-
Maurice Summerfield (born in Newcastle upon Tyne, UK February 4, 1940) played the guitar professionally in diverse jazz groups and dance bands in his late teens and early twenties. His interest in music, and in particular the guitar, encouraged him in 1963 to introduce a range of musical instruments into the range of goods imported by the Summerfield family distribution business (founded 1900). He had joined the company in 1958. From that time Summerfield Musical Instruments soon became one of the most prominent importers and distributors of musical instruments in the United Kingdom. Particular emphasis has always been given by the company to the guitar, other fretted instruments and accessories. Summerfield distributed Ibanez guitars in the UK for almost 25 years in (1964 - 1988) and during that time Maurice was responsible for introducing many important endorsees to the brand and for designing some of their top selling guitars. For almost 40 years the Summerfield company distributed D’Addario products in the UK. Summerfield have distributed Martin strings and accessories in the UK since 1972, and now also distribute the La Bella, Savarez and Royal Classics string lines.Last edited by neatomic; 02-16-2016 at 08:26 PM. Reason: ad-
-
Not personally, obviously, but in addition to neatomic's well informed above post, M Summerfield has authored many very important guitar related books, relating to both Classical and Jazz. In addition, he was a close friend of (among others) Barney Kessel, and Joe Pass.
Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
He's also the head of Ashley Mark Publishing, which published the 3 volume "Jazz Guitar Artistry Of Barney Kessel" books, and the self authored "Barney Kessel, A Jazz Legend" biography, as well as other authors works on C Christian & Wes Montgomery.
Back in the pre-internet days, I bought many books from Ashley Mark, who were unrivaled in relation to customer service and price.
Nowadays, they have the excellent website THE Internet Resource for Guitarists! - FretsOnly.com
In addition to liasing between Joe P. and Ibanez, Maurice Summerfield was also involved in the development of an Ibanez Barney Kessel model, of which a prototype was used by Barney K, on a European tour. It's featured in this clip.
Last edited by pubylakeg; 02-17-2016 at 03:49 AM.
-
Hopefully someone here knows Maurice Summerfield and he can help clear up this mystery.
JD
-
Just a suggestion, isn't forum member Jamie Holroyd involved with Leeds college of music ? AFAIK Adrian Ingram is also active there too. Maybe if someone was to PM Jamie Holroyd, he could pass the question along. I don't think he hangs out on here on the gear threads so much. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
-
That made my ears perk up. Not that I doubt you, just that I hadn't heard that. I knew Joe and Herb recorded together and assumed they thought highly of each other. At times, their interplay seems telepathic, as on this take of "Joe's Blues." Originally Posted by Stringswinger
-
Done. I have sent Jamie a PM with a link to this thread and an indication of the post mentioning him. Originally Posted by pubylakeg
-
Joe went direct whenever he could towards the end of his career. He did not want to schlep an amp around. He had a direct box made. Some of his bad tones might have been due to impedance mismatch, inept sound engineers, etc. He discusses this (along with his last Gibson) in the "Evening With Joe Pass" video.
To my ears he never sounded good with the JP20 or, to be honest, the D'Aquisto (I didn't like Jim Hall's tone with his D'Aquisto, either. Heresy, I know, but there was a high end ping that just grates on my nerves). Joe never sounded better to my ears than with his last Gibson- which looks like an L-4 to me rather than an ES-175.
-
Thanks! I have always appreciated your perspective, insights, and raw knowledge about all this stuff and I was getting a little worried that I had p'o'd someone on the forum whose respect I had hoped one day to gain. Sorry for getting my back up a little bit there. I get testy if someone seems to imply I'm disrespecting Joe Pass or anything associated with him in any way! I corresponded with him the last year or so of his life and he became very dear to me. I flew out to California to attend his funeral and he had set aside some of his books for me, which Ellen sent to me afterwards. I always cherished those, and so I also cherish Joe Pass in every way. I even have the old answering machine tape of a phone message he left on my machine the week he died. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Sorry not looking to shut the convo down, please carry on, it's been my fav thread (which is perverse). Maybe I'm just here for the Star Wars quotes ;-)
Talk about anything you want, I will put in my 2 pence and take it with a pinch of salt. I speak very directly but that often betrays my true feelings or emotions. Just like a factual letter written at a certain point in time might ;-)
The "cased Closed" was just a joke with Jabba. He's actually a very highly skilled, OCD, archtop specialist.
@StringSwinger When i come over to the states, i'll buy you a beer for every time I diss Joe pass's tone. i reckon you're in for two or three so far. If you're lucky I might go some more
nah bless you man, if I ever do that just rip me one, unless its a fair point I'm trying to make ( which is always ;-)
Which means I'm insatiably curious about anything Joe Pass related, and that crazy pickup business. I was hoping that Ibanez had just copied the D'Aquisto, and we could all just say "Well, if Jimmy D'Aquisto thinks that's a good place for a pickup, it must be a good place for a pickup and Ibanez was smart to copy him." But all this fret and scale length stuff now has me thinking that doesn't work. Looks like they just ignorantly copied something, and possibly messed up something Jimmy had figured out?
At any rate, I'm glad we're clear.
-
So... should I keep carrying this fish around, or what? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
-
No, you bite the head off the fish so it'll be smaller. Like Joe did with his picks, you know? Originally Posted by Jehu
Seriously, if I thought smoking a cigar would make me play like Joe, I'd start the habit.
-
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
ES-175 with PU against fretboard, Joe played at the end of the fretboard Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
ES-175 with PU shifted down, Joe moved up and down between fretboard and PU
Ibanez, Joe played at the end of the fretboard
D'Aquisto, Joe played mostly hovered over PU or slightly below (towards bridge) - very slow, quiet songs he'd move up to the fretboard
The video in the OP, Ain't Misbehavin, he's playing right above the pickup almost the entire time. Even if you don't press play, the thumbnail shows his hand over the pickup.Last edited by HeyNow; 02-17-2016 at 12:08 AM.
-
I got to play 2 JP20s last year and liked the sound. I wouldn't call it thin but would say it has clarity. Single lines sing and chords retain definition. I don't think Ibanez made a mistake but was going for a all rounder with the pickup between the usual neck and bridge combo. This general pickup location was used on the Gibson ES 225T with the long trapeze bridge shipped from 1955 - 59. Maybe Joe played one and liked the sound? I haven't played a ES 225T, any JP 20 players here or others ever try one?
-
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Wow nice story. Lets hope we here back from this guy and he can help clear things up but dont be surprised if you cant get closure, Ibanez have always done weird head scratching things. Part of why they have their own identity.
-
Just to upset the apple cart on pickup placement.
Check this video
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...mp;amp;theater
It's Bill Lawrence, the grandfather of replacement pickups. He goes on to say;
'The full harmonic spectrum is only available at the bridge.'
And
'The neck pickup was never supposed to exist on an electric guitar'.
And
'I use the neck pickup as a tone shaper'.
This video does use a Telecaster to show his wiring options.
Neck pickup doesn't catch all the harmonics of the string but it sure does sound nice.
And then there's this...
Darwin calls this natural selection.
Looks like Gibson out-Tele'd Fender!
Lol
-
Well ,the full harmonic spectrum does go through the bridge into the guitar body. The question to ask though is how pleasant the higher order vibrations are to the human ear? A neck pickup rolls off more high frequencies making a more mellow sound without harsh overtones, a bridge pickup gives more bite sensing the higher order vibrations. Do you want to talk or chew? A pickup between makes it a little easier to nibble and whisper with less hardware.
-
Totally agree. I think pickups were placed for other reasons, like this: Originally Posted by oldane
or Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I played a friend's ES-125 and the "sweet spot" was between the P90 and the end of fretboard. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In the case of Fender, maybe he put it there for a kind of geometrical beauty. The JP20 seems to emulate the D'Aquisto (number of frets doesn't matter, the "secret" is scale vs. distance brigde - pickup's poles).
There is other reason: patent infringement. That's why probably an Epiphone ES-175 Premium is more 175-ish than any other copy.
My conclusion is: pickups were put there without keeping in mind harmonics, but this (accidentally) gave each guitar its own voice.
-
I heard back from Jamie Holroyd. He does not know Maurice Summerfield though he does know Adrian Ingram. Unfortunately for our concern, Adrian does not use the Internet. Back to the drawing board!
-
Do we know who all was actually involved in the design of the JP20?
-
Given the time frame and the various things I have seen around the interwebs: Joe, Maurice Summerfield and from Ibanez a guy named Jeff Hasselberger. Jeff was also involved in the GB10 project and with the Bob Weir guitars, too. BTW the oversize headstock on the GB and other Ibbies came from developing Weir's guitars- he thought it improved sustain.
And FWIW Weir swiped, er, laid claim to one of George's prototypes on a factory visit. He still uses it on gigs sometimes.Last edited by Cunamara; 02-18-2016 at 07:49 PM.
-
apparently the joe pass guitar was designed by fritz katoh...fritz later went to epiphone..which is probably how joe p wound up there...maurice summerfield was probably more artist liaison than luthier
the whole story- from Ibanez Collectors World Home Page
"From Dirk who personally knows be-bop guitar great Bruce Forman:
I have the Joe Pass epi myself (the blond)- which is how it came up in conversation with Bruce... I said "your guitar sure looks a lot like my Joe Pass" and he said, "I know. Yours is actually a copy of mine, etc.."
The guy who made Joe Pass' guitar for Ibanez also made Bruce Forman's guitar. When Epiphone asked him to make a Joe Pass signature guitar for them, he decided to use the design for Bruce Forman's guitar instead of the one for Joe Pass... so, in a way, it's really a Bruce Forman signature guitar - Bruce still plays the original two or three nights a week at Jazz at Pearl's in San Francisco and on weekends at various sites in Monterey County, and once a month while traveling with the Monterey Jazz Festival Traveling Clinicians programs.
Here is Bruce Forman's reply to me when I asked for confirmation of the story above:
#1 It's true...a man named Fritz Katoh made both of our guitars for Ibanez and he has since moved to Epiphone.
#2 We never talked about the JP signature Epiphone, however, the dimensions are the same as mine (the only thing it has in common with the JP), the f-hole style is the same as MINE, the choice of wood types are the same as MINE, and the pickup placement is the same as my model. Epiphone changed the tailpeice design to metal, away from an ebony version which was a replica of the newer D'Aquistos'(something my model also had in common with the Ibanez JP). When I did a comparison with my axe, an Ibanez JP and the Epiphone it was obvious to all of us, and there were a whole bunch of guitar players there, that my model was far more similar.
#3 The Epiphones are very good inexpensive guitars, I recommend them, but beware, they vary quite a bit from axe to axe. Some are much better than others."
cheers
ps-bruce formans ibanez
Last edited by neatomic; 02-18-2016 at 08:42 PM. Reason: ps-
-
Bruce is one of my favorite players, and we don't hear much about him. I used to be in the SF area every summer, and never knew I could have gone to hear him. Maybe next time!
So do we know why they decided to place the pickup where they did? Bruce's in this picture doesn't seem to be in the same spot as the JP20.
-
good bit from ibanez 1986 catalog..they had artist model/endorsements for abercrombie, holdsworth, benson, ritenour, scofield and pass!!! wow!
"the drive from the specially placed super 58!"
http://ibanezrules.com/catalogs/us/1986/p41.jpg
cheers
-
My understanding from somewhere or another, no idea where I heard this or whether it's even true, was that Joe liked having a little space between the end of the fretboard and the pickup so that he didn't run into the pickup with his fingers or pick. But the Ibanez JP-20 had 22 frets instead of the 20 that his ES-175 and D'Aquisto had. Johnny Smith preferred a 20 fret neck because he felt the guitar sounded warmer with the resulting pickup location (in his case right up to the end of the neck) and had his D'Angelico made that way. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
What some hear as a clearer or more defined sound from the JP20 others hear as thin and bright. It takes all kinds- I can't tell you what to hear and vice versa. Our ears are different. Joe DeNisco's tone sounds better to me on his JP20 than Joe Pass did, in fact. JP sounded often like he was playing a Strat on the middle pickup on the videos out there, but who knows how well recorded those were. When he got his last custom Gibson he had them put the pickup right up against the end of the neck, which tells me that he did not want to replicate the JP20's sound. And he sounded great on that Gibson.
I am pretty sure I would be unhappy with the tone I would get from a JP20, even if someone else sounded great on it. Kind of a bummer since I think the JP20 is one of the best looking jazz guitars ever made.
By the way, the information that has come up about this guitar in this thread has been amazingly informative. This is one of the best threads I have ever read.
Reply With Quote
Melody between melody
Today, 03:25 AM in Chord-Melody