Vintage Binding Replacement

[skykomishone]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around, and accept the fact that I'll need to replace some binding on a very old guitar. The only question is when and how. So, I'd like to open up a discussion on the subject and gain some understanding about it. It would be nice to hear others experience, get some guidance.

Many old guitars, and age is somewhat relative as is the definition of 'vintage', but I'm talking the real thing, as in pre WWII vintage. Now I've witnessed the process of a D'Aquisto being re-binded, since John had a bad batch at some point which rotted off of some really fabulous guitars.

The guitar binding in question here is not (falling off the guitar) that bad. Drying over time it has shrunk, and it has cracks. It's all still on the instrument, albeit somewhat rough in several places. It's 9ply, and only the outer thick layer appears to be going south. I've glued the loose places with A/C glue. The inner thin layers appear reasonably sound, maybe a couple of very small areas possibly a problem. I've seen this occur on many relics from that period and want to know how it's been handled by people I trust to have done the right thing.

Thanks,

Steve

[icr]

Need pictures.

[icr]

I try to preserve binding when I can. For example when I had the back off my L50, I re-used the binding. Only a one cm area was damaged and that was repaired.

[skykomishone]

OK. Just took some pics. Here is a sample. I can see that this is a very popular thread ICR. Thanks bro. I've recently worked with my luthier, in my shop, doing some restoration on someone's earlier (who knows when) half ass restoration, so there is some fresh lacquer yet to be scraped, sanded, and finished, around the edges. The photo shows the outer, thick binding, is what I'm talking about as the target. The inner layers appear to be pretty ok. The current plan is some restoration work schedule for this summer, starting with pulling off some of the outer binding, where it's really cracked and and seeing how it goes.

[sgcim]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around, and accept the fact that I'll need to replace some binding on a very old guitar. The only question is when and how. So, I'd like to open up a discussion on the subject and gain some understanding about it. It would be nice to hear others experience, get some guidance.

Many old guitars, and age is somewhat relative as is the definition of 'vintage', but I'm talking the real thing, as in pre WWII vintage. Now I've witnessed the process of a D'Aquisto being re-binded, since John had a bad batch at some point which rotted off of some really fabulous guitars.

The guitar binding in question here is not (falling off the guitar) that bad. Drying over time it has shrunk, and it has cracks. It's all still on the instrument, albeit somewhat rough in several places. It's 9ply, and only the outer thick layer appears to be going south. I've glued the loose places with A/C glue. The inner thin layers appear reasonably sound, maybe a couple of very small areas possibly a problem. I've seen this occur on many relics from that period and want to know how it's been handled by people I trust to have done the right thing.

Thanks,

Steve

I think you meant D'Angelico instead of D'Aquisto.
On my '35 D'A, the thin binding on the neck had yellowed and cracked, so I took it to Carlo Greco on 48th St. in NYC,
and he replaced it with new, white binding.
He had it for six months, and I told him to do whatever he felt was necessary to get it in mint condition.
I was surprised he only charged me $500 for the binding, a fret job, crack repairs, tuning peg repairs, sprucing up the finish, and adding some original D'A fret markers on the fingerboard.

As has been the case with anyone who's seen it and deals in guitars, he tried to get me to trade it for one of his handmade guitars. I told him I wasn't interested.

[2bornot2bop]

I'd have Lem do it. It's not worth mucking it up to save a dollar or two on that Emperor trying to do it yourself Steve...that's what you signed up for after all!

[skykomishone]

I think you meant D'Angelico instead of D'Aquisto.

Nope. I mean D'Aquisto. D'Aquisto had a bad batch of binding that rotted off. No big deal, if you have a seriously good luthier. It happened and it unhappened. Nothing about Jimmy, just about the binding.

[skykomishone]

I'd have Lem do it. It's not worth mucking it up to save a dollar or two on that Emperor trying to do it yourself Steve...that's what you signed up for after all!

Greg, of course. That's what I'm talking about bro. It's a team effort. Thank (whatever) God! I consider myself a lucky man, with some seriously cool friends, yourself included.

Steve

[skykomishone]

...,Now I've witnessed the process of a D'Aquisto being re-binded, since John had a bad batch at some point which rotted off of some really fabulous guitars.

I meant Jimmy. Sorry. But I expect it happened to John too, and others. Lots of variation in the binding (and pickguard) creation process back then. But, this can and does occur as natural aging of nitrocellulose binding. It happened in the Library of Congress storage vault for old films, since they are made of the same material.

Anyway, just wanted to correct my earlier error. Thanks.

[2bornot2bop]

I think you meant D'Angelico instead of D'Aquisto.
On my '35 D'A, the thin binding on the neck had yellowed and cracked, so I took it to Carlo Greco on 48th St. in NYC,
and he replaced it with new, white binding.
He had it for six months, and I told him to do whatever he felt was necessary to get it in mint condition.
I was surprised he only charged me $500 for the binding, a fret job, crack repairs, tuning peg repairs, sprucing up the finish, and adding some original D'A fret markers on the fingerboard.

As has been the case with anyone who's seen it and deals in guitars, he tried to get me to trade it for one of his handmade guitars. I told him I wasn't interested.

Regarding the D'Aquisto in question, I had the pleasure of seeing the restoration process of the D'Aquisto New Yorker as it was being restored over months. It surprised me that an 80's D'Aquisto would sustain binding rot, but the luthier explained there was binding failure on many D'Aquisto's from this period due to a bad batch of binding, or bad glue, I can't recall which. But when the restoration was complete you'd not have believed the end result.

Okay, one never forgets their first up close and personal experience with a D'Aquisto New Yorker! Oh yeah!

Here's the headstock of said D'Aquisto

[vinnyv1k]

WOW mine was a 1985. Guess I got lucky. I have seen a lot of D'Angelico's, Epiphone's, and Guilds with binding failure but not Gibson or Heritage too often. I have often wondered why Gibson binding lives longer ?

[skykomishone]

WOW mine was a 1985. Guess I got lucky. I have seen a lot of D'Angelico's, Epiphone's, and Guilds with binding failure but not Gibson or Heritage too often. I have often wondered why Gibson binding lives longer ?

.

Well, how many Octagenerians have you owned, or played?

[NotDave]

One of the issues with the binding cracking, deteriorating and gassing out is that it gradually discolors the wood in the area of the binding failure. Here's an example:

https://www.gbase.com/gear/daquisto-new-yorker-special-1984-natural

For this reason, it's important to have the binding replaced when it starts to deteriorate, and not wait until the issue becomes more widespread. I recently had this done on a 1985 D'Aquisto. I had the work done by Cris Mirabella, who is generally recognized as one of a very few people to trust this work to on D'Aquisto and D'Angelico guitars.

(Cris explained that there's a way to extract the discoloration from the end grain of the wood once the binding is off, which I found fascinating. The process draws on properties of capillary action, and you basically suck the bad material out from the wood. Sounds like a long-shot that I'm getting this right as I type this, but that's at least how I remember him explaining it. I fortunately picked it up before getting to the point of this being an issue.)

Anyway, best to have it done at the first signs of a problem.

NotDave

[Jabberwocky]

This is a head-scratching problem with vintage guitars. To do or not to do. Binding does absolutely nothing, except rob tone, cost money and rot away.

If you follow the "first do no harm" approach to vintage guitars, you replace only the sections which are crumbling. And hope for the best. And keep repeating that until the original binding no longer exists.

If you follow the pragmatic "what the fook" approach, you strip away the rotting binding and replace it in its entirety with new binding.

You are going to take a hit on market value, no matter what you do. The question is how much you are willing to bear. No concern at all? Replace the binding and the purfling with a new one, say I. Somewhat concerned? Do what you can and must. Very concerned? Live with it until you can no longer bear with the sight and feel of it.

My thoughts are to leave the binding alone as much as you can until you reach the point where the rot is becoming a bother and impedes your enjoyment of the guitar.

Then question arises again...or you thank Providence for allowing you to enjoy it for the number of years you have and sell it on to the next fellow to worry about.

(Talk to your luthier who is the best person to advise you. Can he brush lacquer on it to hold the rotting bits together? Can he cut a strip of thin clear mylar film (like what is used to cover the wings of aeromodels) and glue it on the existing binding with thin clear water-based glue like white glue? Make sure it is reversible, of course.

As you can tell, I am of the "first do no harm" school. Leave well enough alone. I like my guitars and my women friends that way i.e. au naturel.)

[Matt Cushman]

Nitro cellulose is a poor choice of binding material. Even modern nitro cellulose plastic does exactly the same thing as the vintage stuff, it gasses away till it is nothing more than crumbs. So if the binding is replaced with more cellulose binding, the process will repeat itself. As a builder, I have always disliked plastic as binding material. It kills sound and is unpleasant to work with. And even though abs plastic is very permanent I still don't like it. It was for these reasons that I made the switch to black and white fiber binding. Fiber is vulcanized cellulose and is not going to rot. The best thing about it is that it sounds better than plastic in my opinion, and is more like wood in that respect. Fiber is used by many of the flat top builders and is now found on many instruments. For vintage guitars more nitro cellulose is probably your only choice for an accurate replacement. Nitro cellulose binding is also getting more difficult to find. It is an explosive after all and they charge extra to ship the stuff.

[skykomishone]

One of the issues with the binding cracking, deteriorating and gassing out is that it gradually discolors the wood in the area of the binding failure. Here's an example:

For this reason, it's important to have the binding replaced when it starts to deteriorate, and not wait until the issue becomes more widespread. I recently had this done on a 1985 D'Aquisto. I had the work done by Cris Mirabella, who is generally recognized as one of a very few people to trust this work to on D'Aquisto and D'Angelico guitars.

(Cris explained that there's a way to extract the discoloration from the end grain of the wood once the binding is off, which I found fascinating. The process draws on properties of capillary action, and you basically suck the bad material out from the wood. Sounds like a long-shot that I'm getting this right as I type this, but that's at least how I remember him explaining it. I fortunately picked it up before getting to the point of this being an issue.)

Anyway, best to have it done at the first signs of a problem.

NotDave

NotDave, Thank you man. I'm fortunate that this 80 year old guitar is in exceptional shape for the shape it's in. The binding failure sees to be constrained to the outer wide band, and as a percentage to about 30+ (guessing, since it's in my shop and I'm not looking at it). As far as discoloration, that isn't (hasn't been) a problem. I'm committed to this guitar as a long range project to do what it takes to restore the binding properly. I can't believe my luck to have such a fine instrument as this one and do plan to get it done with the best luthier I know (who's done a D'Aquisto binding replacement to the highest standards.). I also have the good fortune of working side by side with said luthier to learn these skills and perform the apprentice role (grunt work) which will help with the cost. A decent luthier is beaucoup bucks. I have a fine heated shop with excellent space and lighting, and I'm retired, and most importantly, it's fun.

This is a head-scratching problem with vintage guitars. To do or not to do. Binding does absolutely nothing, except rob tone, cost money and rot away.

If you follow the "first do no harm" approach to vintage guitars, you replace only the sections which are crumbling. And hope for the best. And keep repeating that until the original binding no longer exists.

If you follow the pragmatic "what the fook" approach, you strip away the rotting binding and replace it in its entirety with new binding.

You are going to take a hit on market value, no matter what you do. The question is how much you are willing to bear. No concern at all? Replace the binding and the purfling with a new one, say I. Somewhat concerned? Do what you can and must. Very concerned? Live with it until you can no longer bear with the sight and feel of it.

My thoughts are to leave the binding alone as much as you can until you reach the point where the rot is becoming a bother and impedes your enjoyment of the guitar.

Then question arises again...or you thank Providence for allowing you to enjoy it for the number of years you have and sell it on to the next fellow to worry about.

(Talk to your luthier who is the best person to advise you. Can he brush lacquer on it to hold the rotting bits together? Can he cut a strip of thin clear mylar film (like what is used to cover the wings of aeromodels) and glue it on the existing binding with thin clear water-based glue like white glue? Make sure it is reversible, of course.

As you can tell, I am of the "first do no harm" school. Leave well enough alone. I like my guitars and my women friends that way i.e. au naturel.)

Jab,

Thank you man. I appreciate the thought in your reply. As said above, my luthier (I love the sound of that) has been borrowing space in my shop to do some work, and in return, is helping with this project. It's a win-win. I can do a serious amount of whatever work that I feel comfortable doing under his watchful eye. What a joy. Anyway, a measured and careful approach to achieve the desired outcome, which is replacing any and all binding showing signs of failure, while retaining any and all sound components including existing finish. I absolutely hate to see these old guitars totally stripped and redone to some weird high-gloss brand new showroom unrealistic condition. I agree with you. It ain't right. Bumps, dings, natural wear, a few scratches, if it doesn't have that, it sure wasn't played or loved probably.

Nitro cellulose is a poor choice of binding material. Even modern nitro cellulose plastic does exactly the same thing as the vintage stuff, it gasses away till it is nothing more than crumbs. So if the binding is replaced with more cellulose binding, the process will repeat itself. As a builder, I have always disliked plastic as binding material. It kills sound and is unpleasant to work with. And even though abs plastic is very permanent I still don't like it. It was for these reasons that I made the switch to black and white fiber binding. Fiber is vulcanized cellulose and is not going to rot. The best thing about it is that it sounds better than plastic in my opinion, and is more like wood in that respect. Fiber is used by many of the flat top builders and is now found on many instruments. For vintage guitars more nitro cellulose is probably your only choice for an accurate replacement. Nitro cellulose binding is also getting more difficult to find. It is an explosive after all and they charge extra to ship the stuff.

Matt,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It's always a pleasure talking and sharing with someone that is a luthier/builder. I have the utmost highest respect for those committed to building and maintaining archtop guitars. It seems they're always willing to share their knowledge and experience with those willing to listen and help them along. I don't like plastic either btw if I can avoid it.

I pass though Great Falls occasionally on the way to Wyoming, maybe I'll shoot you a PM next time through (this summer) and pay a visit? What kind of guitars are you building?

Thanks,

Steve

[wintermoon]

this is a time consuming job that most luthiers detest.

the good part is, on 30s/40s Epi's and late 40s/50s D'Angelicos it's typically only the outer layer that's affected so you don't need to do a complete rebind. some D'Aquistos and Gretsch's need a full rebind though.

you need to remove the old outer layer and install a new one w/out touching the finish next to it.
since the finish on your guitar next to the binding has already been worked on you won't have this problem.
make sure you take your time and add a slight radius to the edge when done, you don't want it sharp.
check other older Epis for how much radius. you'll also want to tint the new binding so it's not stark white.

good luck

[Matt Cushman]

NotDave, Thank you man. I'm fortunate that this 80 year old guitar is in exceptional shape for the shape it's in. The binding failure sees to be constrained to the outer wide band, and as a percentage to about 30+ (guessing, since it's in my shop and I'm not looking at it). As far as discoloration, that isn't (hasn't been) a problem. I'm committed to this guitar as a long range project to do what it takes to restore the binding properly. I can't believe my luck to have such a fine instrument as this one and do plan to get it done with the best luthier I know (who's done a D'Aquisto binding replacement to the highest standards.). I also have the good fortune of working side by side with said luthier to learn these skills and perform the apprentice role (grunt work) which will help with the cost. A decent luthier is beaucoup bucks. I have a fine heated shop with excellent space and lighting, and I'm retired, and most importantly, it's fun.








Matt,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It's always a pleasure talking and sharing with someone that is a luthier/builder. I have the utmost highest respect for those committed to building and maintaining archtop guitars. It seems they're always willing to share their knowledge and experience with those willing to listen and help them along. I don't like plastic either btw if I can avoid it.

I pass though Great Falls occasionally on the way to Wyoming, maybe I'll shoot you a PM next time through (this summer) and pay a visit? What kind of guitars are you building?

Thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve. I think we have all seen vintage guitars with some binding problems before, so you are not alone. I think that given enough time most of the old binding will be gone anyway. So replaced binding will be common in the future. I just completed a semi hollow ES 335 style guitar. But I usually build archtops and F style mandolins. If you are in Great Falls, let me know. I always have a few projects in the works. Matt