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Many jazz guitarists love the Charlie Christian pickup. I know I enjoy hearing it used, but I'm curious about just what the magic was? How were the original ones actually made? Are the new "copies" just as good?
I'm not asking for a debate, and I'm not skeptical at all, not asking for a defense; but more of simply a detailing of what was/is special about these pickups, from their physical construction up through their tone. It can be purely intuitive, or robustly technical, I just love hearing knowledgeable jazz players talking about this stuff.
All for fun and my own better appreciation of the jazz guitar heritage.Last edited by lawson-stone; 12-23-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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12-23-2015 01:27 PM
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My experience with that pickup was not in jazz. One came stock in a 1939 Gibson EH-185 lap steel I owned for years. A bit noisy, p90 like in that way. Not exactly p90 in sound. A different midrange somehow. Hard to separate the sound of the p/u from the rather unique construction of that steel (one long steel plate, with the wood bits bolted on). Up loud through an old deluxe reverb at blues jams, that steel sounded more like an organ. Warm, fat tone, a massive sound. Not really like anything else I've heard. Played it once in a church, through a super reverb. It sounded just as fat as the church organ.
MD
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All I know is that bar magnet and wound with heavier wire than used today so resistance is less the combination created a very special sounding pickup.
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huge cobalt magnets
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This has a pretty detailed explanation:
What makes a Charlie Christian pickup a Charlie Christian pickup? - MyLesPaul.com
I was just listening to the Charlie Christian Minton's jam, and the tone he got was really something.
John
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It is the fat, velvety warm, slightly fuzzy sound when pushed single coil tone. The pickup is huge, the magnets are weak, 38AWG gauge wire; mount all that mass to a soundboard, and the combination produces that tone. The mass damps the soundboard.
It is the Johnny Hartman of pickups. One either digs that tone or hears it as being 'old-fashioned'.
Are the modern copies just as good? Close but no cigar really. I don't believe in magic wires or juju magnets but time has done something to the original ones that makes them special. The modern ones sound clean like a P90. I have 2 of them, both of Gibson Nashville origin circa 2000. My gut feel is that an octal-based tube amp or Fender Tweed style amp works wonders with the Charlie Christian blade pickup. A Blackface Fender...not so sure about that.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-24-2015 at 12:53 AM.
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This is a good description.
One thing that influences the sound, I think, is that despite being weaker magnets, because of their size (i.e. very long), the magnetic field catches longer lenghts of the strings. IMHO that's were its characteristic sound comes from.
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That's a good analysis on it. That may explain why the modern repros don't sound like the old. As far as I am aware, the repros don't have those 2 long bar magnets that form the chassis of the 3-point mount. Lollar CC, for example, has an acrylic plate. CCUK has 2 metal bars that look the part but aren't magnets, as far as I know. Vintage Vibe uses a phenolic board or fibreboard, if I am not wrong. So, the long bars, when they are used, are more for show than go.
Barney Kessel said in an interview that his CC blade pickup was "made of magnets with a metal no longer found on this earth" or something to that effect. In truth, cobalt was in short supply during the war. And by the time it was over, they had better magnets than the weak cobalt steel ones.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-24-2015 at 04:51 AM.
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Another reason for those 1930s CC pickups sounding different from modern replicas can be that the cobalt magnet have weakened during those 75 years.
BTW, the old CC pickups are not only sheer happiness. They are noisy, often unbalanced from string to string (not only the B string), and the mounting screws tend to work themselves loose so they rattle/buzz. I know from my own experience. I have a 1938 CC retrofitted to an even older Gibson L37. For day to day use, I much prefer the Biltoft HCC in my Painter, but I admit it doesn't sound quite the same (different, not worse).
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On the effects of time, that would not have had an impact on the tone when CC recorded. The pickup was brand new, so no aging involved. Or am I missing something (I often do!)
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Right, but when comparing recordings from when the original CC pickups were new to modern recording, one also has to take the limited recording technique of yesteryear into account. Actually, I was referring to original 1930s CC pickups used and recorded today - which is how people often compare them to the present replicas an lookalikes. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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IMHO I don't think there is any magic, they usually are on already great platforms like ES 300, 350 150 or 125.
Putting a CC on a cheap Asian guitar might be a fun experiment but in my opinion, it will not make it sound like a 50s guitar...
If there is something I get much closer to Tal 50s tone with a classic 57 humbucker equipped Tal than I ever was on the HCC equipped Regent.
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As I mentioned on the other CC-pickup thread and on the Vintage '47 EH-185 thread, an actual CC-pickup sounds clear and bright, and its the amps of the era that added the fatness. The clarity of the CC-pickup prevented the amp from making the tone to muddy. It's that perfect combo of oil and vinegar - one provides the richness, the other provides the bite. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Hey Jonathan (campusfive). IIRC, you wrote you had a UK made CC pickup replica (by Cosimini) waiting for the right guitar to install into. Maybe, if you still have it un-installed, you would be kind enough to confirm if the two metal bars are actually functioning magnets, or just there to facilitate the 3 point mount. Jabberwocky's post has got me paranoid now, and I'm not to keen to disassemble mine to verify.
Merry Christmas and best wishes to all.
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By "magic" I didn't mean they had some transcendent quality, I just meant "their special appeal to a big segment of the the jazz guitar playing or listening population." These pickups have an undeniable fan base and ignite a lot of passion, and clearly there is a market for them judging by the reproductions that are appearing. I was simply asking what accounts for that passionate devotion to this specific pickup. Originally Posted by vinlander
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nostalgia, uniqueness, love of the artists that used them and looks/aesthetic are always prime motivators..but construction of pup is also primary...most unique...original thick #38 wire wrap( tho it evolved to #42)..cobalt bar and huge (but relatively low gauss) magnets..creates a distinctively large magnetic field that no other pickup gets
the history of magnets in pickup design has always been increasingly towards the more powerful..ie cobalt to the various alnicos to ceramic/ferrite to neo..strength, and cost that is
same as with speaker mags
cheers
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Hi
I’ve never had the opportunity to play a guitar with a CC p/u.
Is there anyone here who has real knowledge on these and opinions? I am interested in a 1979 ES175 with CC. However it would have to be a internet purchase as it’s situated abroad. I have to admit that I was never a big fan of Barney Kessel’s sound but I wonder if there are other examples I could check out. Obviously I am familiar with CC.
Thanks
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Hi md54,
Guitarist Miles Okazaki has played an ES175-CC almost exclusively for the last 30-odd years. It's the only guitar you'll hear on his albums, including 'Work', his 6CD set in which he plays the complete compositions of Thelonious Monk solo.
Work (Complete, Volumes 1-6) | Miles Okazaki
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Forum member Fred Archtop has several guitars equipped with CC pickups, including an ES-175CC. Here's a thread in which he shares a demo video.
Gibson ES-175 CC Demo - Estate
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To my ears Rob MacKillops CC pickup and guitar sound just like Barney Kessel's tone. And I listen to Barney a lot on Julie London's recordings.
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Thanks guys!
Some great replies here.
It’s confirmed for me that I am a humbucker player. I can live with a p90.
These CCs sound..... clunky to me. I guess I will always gravitate towards a well sorted humbucker. Excellent examples above though.
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The Charlie Christian pickup was state of the art about 80 years ago. It is no longer 80 years ago. But old designs still have their charms for some. I like the DeArmond Rhythm Chief, designed only about 70 years ago. Much less bright and clunky. There is no accounting for taste.
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Apart from tone, there are a few things to be aware of with CC-pickups. I have two guitars with Biltoft "CC" pickups and one with an original 1937 CC.
Only the priginal CC pickup (and mayby exact copies like those from a UK company who makes them like that) sound like a real CC. And yet, an original CC may not sound like it did in the 1930s because the cobalt magnets have weakened during the years. They can be remagnetized though. Also, most modern amps sound different from those used back in the 1930s and 1940s, though there are clones and approximations to the original ones out there. The "CC" pickups from Lollar, Biltoft and others sound great in their own right and are approximations to the real thing but they don't sound identical to them.
That said, like with all pickups, original CC pickups sound very different depending on the guitar, the guitar setup, the player and the amp. One can hardly say that Barney Kessel and Jimmy Raney - who both used CC equipped guitars in the 1950s - sounded too much alike. There are TV clips with Barney Kessel out there made in Europe (whereto he apparently didn't want to bring his own trusty ES350 guitar) but is playing an Ibanez archtop with humbuckers but he still indeed sounds very much like himself.
The original CC is heavy and with it's 3-point mounting the mounting screws is (at least on my guitar) prone to come loose freeing the shims under them to buzz. In the long term it wouldn't work without the shims between the screw heads and the guitar top because the screws would then dig into the top.
The original CC picks up electrical noise in the surroundings very easily. This may or may not be a problem in your living room, but it is often a problem in live gigs and is certainly a problem in a recording studio.
The original CC is not too well balanced. With my sample the low E and A strings are too prominent. The old 1934 L34 on which it is mounted is for me mostly a museum piece.
At least with my sample, I would have a hard time getting the CC pickup up high enough for modern guitars which have the strings raised higher over the top by a neck extension, while the guitars they were originally designed for had the fretboards directly on the top without a neck extension.
It's worth noting that the CC pickup was only used by Gibson for a short span of years before it was replaced by the P90's predecessor. It did hum too but not as much. Eventually the P90 was replaced by the humbucker, because the humming annoyed professional musicians a lot. Many had the P90s on their guitars replaced by humbuckers (say Jim Hall) or switched to humbucker equipped guitars (say Wes Montgomery) in the late 1950s.
I do prefer the modern incarnations like the Biltoft or the Lollar, even though they don't sound exactly like the original ones. In addition the Biltoft and Lollar (and others) are available in standard humbucker mount, making pickup swaps easy without guitar surgery, and pickup heigth adjustments can be done in seconds. IMHO, they are simply much more practical in daily use.Last edited by oldane; 05-03-2020 at 05:54 AM.
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Thanks for this amazing demonstration! Wow, you own some guitar dollars there buddy. Originally Posted by Fred Archtop
I didn’t think that there was a lot of significant difference in the sound of these guitars to be honest. All acceptable classic jazz tone (with a little clunk). However I prefer a humbucker or better still a BJB floating humbucker which I think is the sweetest sounding pickup I ever heard.
Obviously you don’t agree and that’s fine. Viva la difference!
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