Need Arch Top Advice

**Bob P.** · 12-23-2015, 12:52 PM

Greetings All, First, let me say i'm new here and initially i'm overwhelmed by the vast amount of expertise across the board that i've found in the last couple of days on this website. That said, i hope to draw on that statement.

i've been playing on and off for a good many years, a "ham and egger" if you will. lol. Will be retiring in the next several months which hopefully will allow a good deal of practice time, provided my arthritic hands don't object too much. i currently own a Gibson Super 400 CES in sunburst, circa 1976(18" bout and 25-1/2 " scale) that is becoming difficult for me to play. By contrast, my ES335's 16" bout and 24-3/4" scale seem much more comfortable. i still want to play an arch top, so i've been researching the web for a "replacement". One guitar that has caught my eye is the Eastman AR803CE-16. It has a 16" bout and 25" scale length. Anyone here familiar with this guitar?? i don't want to spend a lot of money right now (2K seems reasonable), as i'll primarily just be playing for my own satisfaction. Not to say however that it won't leave the house. Primary "gigs" would be at church or local j.c. community jazz band.

Thanks in advance and looking forward to any/all comments and suggestions.

Merry Christmas,

Bob P.

**jazz.fred** · 12-23-2015, 01:10 PM

You could probably find a used Heritage H575 for around $2K. Top shelf performance in a 16" archtop. I recently found an H575 Custom in MINT condition for $1900. This was the deal of the century and I am thrilled with it.

I also own a Peerless Monarch 16 which represents an outstanding value @ $1400. Check out the Monarch 16 at Guitars 'n Jazz - 400 Archtops in stock - choose don't settle.

I believe that you would be very happy with either.

P.S. The Eastman AR 371, Peerless Gigmaster 175 Jazz and the Epi ES175 are great guitars at approx. $1000 and each will give you a taste of Gibson ES175 vibe. Be aware that these three instruments sound very different from each other.

**jads57** · 12-23-2015, 01:25 PM

Well I'm very biased since I own an Eastman 803CE as well as a Eastman 810CE. For the $ there really arent many alternatives at this price point if you want a real hand carved guitar w/ laquer finish. For a bit more a used Heritage Sweet 16 in the $2K range. I actually prefer the Eastmans to many Heritages I've played for (playability) neck shape. Even though you can order a Heritage w/ any neck shape you want, most feel like late 60's Gibsons (smaller at the nut and large at the 12th fret).
The only down side to the Eastmans I've found are the finishes are a bit thin and fragile. And not a negative but they follow the modern thinner carved top and back plates (Benedetto design) as opposed tothe thicker plates used by Gibson and vintage Epiphones. This translates to less midrange in the acoustic tone to my ears.
Here comes the shameless pitch!..........
I'm actually selling both of my Eastmans since I've had a custom archtop Elferink Tone Master built for me this last fall.
I don't need 3 archtops,lol! And I personally prefer the thicker plates hence a more vintage Gibson tone.
The 803CE has a built in Kent Armstrong PAF and the guitar has upgraded woods and wood binding in a Classic Sunburst finish. I believe it was built in 2009-2010. I bought it from a good freind last year. It's in exc cond. I'm aking $1450.

Hope this info helps you make a more informed descion, and contact me for any further info. Even if you arent interested in my guitar.

Happy Holidays!

**Jabberwocky** · 12-23-2015, 01:28 PM

Southside Chicago! When I was in space-cadet college in Northwest Indiana I used to hang out with a group of Eritreans. No famine jokes, please. One of them drove to Chicago and his car broke down in the Southside. He got out to look for a payphone. "I was never so scared in my life, man. And get this: I'm black." We had a good guffaw about it but I could tell that he was not really joking. It was that bad in the 80s. We used to drive out to Chicago to visit the blues bars at N. Clark Street and drink Red Flag. Ethiopian food was really good.

The Chicago Music Exchange may carry Eastman archtops. I know that Bernunzio's in Rochester, NY has them. You could always call and ask for an in-hand description. Good folks at Bernunzio's.

PS jads57 was posting at the same time as I did. He gave good info. to go on. You may also consider his.

**skykomishone** · 12-23-2015, 01:38 PM

Bob,

Another suggestion is to go onto gbase.com and enter your search criteria. I have no affiliation with it, except I know that many guitar sellers use it and it has a far reach. you can dial in whatever you're after. It's just another option to check out. Good luck with your music and search, and if you ever want to unload that Super 400, this group would love to have a go at it, believe me.

Thanks, Steve

**barrymclark** · 12-23-2015, 01:46 PM

Hard to go wrong with a Heritage as suggested. I own a 575 and love it. Not as large or as deep as a Super 400.

Also as mentioned, if you decide to sell that Super, better believe this board will snap it up.

My first jazz teacher played a mid 70's Super 400. So, I have a bit of an affinity for these. Yours was even built the same year my wife was born.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-23-2015, 01:58 PM

Used Heritage would be a great choice.

Dimmer entry Strummer, at the Old Town School of folk music, carries Eastman. Call first, see what they have. Not sure if i've seen Eastman at CME.

**vinnyv1k** · 12-24-2015, 02:18 PM

Having 2 Gibson's you may want to consider spending a extra $500 and getting a good used ES175. As you already well know it is hard to beat the tone of a Gibson. Heritage 575 would be a good choice too. Eastman guitars are a great value but don't sound anything like a Gibson. Let your ear and arthritic hand decide. Very hard to beat the sound and easy playability of a good 175 IMO.

**skykomishone** · 12-24-2015, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Having 2 Gibson's you may want to consider spending a extra $500 and getting a good used ES175. As you already well know it is hard to beat the tone of a Gibson. Heritage 575 would be a good choice too. Eastman guitars are a great value but don't sound anything like a Gibson. Let your ear and arthritic hand decide. Very hard to beat the sound and easy playability of a good 175 IMO.

That's good Vinny! I'm throwing 2 thumbs up at you Man. Excellent suggestion. Also glad we're on the increasing daylight side of the solstice.

**snoskier63** · 12-24-2015, 08:24 PM

The Heritage 575 is a good option. I would also consider two Guild guitars: 1970's X-175 (17"), and a 1960's or 1970's CE-100 (16"). Each can be had for under 2k.

**jads57** · 12-25-2015, 12:11 AM

I would add the Heritage 575 as well as some of the others mentioned are great if you plan on playing in louder situations w/ a drummer especially! The Eastmans tend to shine in smaller low to medium volume situations. They have more acoustic properties since the solid spruce top vibrates more freely.
No matter which way you go you'll be happy!

**2bornot2bop** · 12-25-2015, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by jazz.fred

You could probably find a used Heritage H575 for around $2K. Top shelf performance in a 16" archtop. I recently found an H575 Custom in MINT condition for $1900. This was the deal of the century and I am thrilled with it.

I also own a Peerless Monarch 16 which represents an outstanding value @ $1400. Check out the Monarch 16 at Guitars 'n Jazz - 400 Archtops in stock - choose don't settle.

I believe that you would be very happy with either.

P.S. The Eastman AR 371, Peerless Gigmaster 175 Jazz and the Epi ES175 are great guitars at approx. $1000 and each will give you a taste of Gibson ES175 vibe. Be aware that these three instruments sound very different from each other.

Much less for a used Heritage 575, and Monarch 16. Try $1200 on the 575 and as low as $850 on the Monarch 16...just gotta keep lookin'

Not a fan of the finish, but Elderly has a nice, and somewhat rare, single set HB 575 - Their asking price is $1700. 575's are commonly found "used" below $1500.

http://www.elderly.com/instruments/e...h-575-2001.htm

2013 Peerless Monarch PE3016PP4 Archtop Hollow Body Jazz Guitar Free Shipping | eBay

**Bob P.** · 12-28-2015, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Having 2 Gibson's you may want to consider spending a extra $500 and getting a good used ES175. As you already well know it is hard to beat the tone of a Gibson. Heritage 575 would be a good choice too. Eastman guitars are a great value but don't sound anything like a Gibson. Let your ear and arthritic hand decide. Very hard to beat the sound and easy playability of a good 175 IMO.

This message really hit home for me. All of the 175's i've seen are more than i am willing to spend. Didn't see anything in any sort of decent shape for much less that $4800 or so. I did however stumble on a 1996 ES-165 HE in pristine condition. It is the body mounted single pick-up model with body mounted volume and tone controls. Anyone here familiar with this guitar? I'll be driving a very long distance on Wed. of this week to check it out/and/or purchase it. Any and all comments are welcomed, pro and con. Again, thanks in advance for your expertise. It is greatly appreciated.

Bob P.

**jazz.fred** · 12-28-2015, 03:06 PM

(Sung to the tune of "Blowin' in the Wind")

The answer my friend
Is the H575
The answer is an H575

(as previously mentioned, a new or used Peerless Monarch 16 would also be an excellent and cost effective choice (IMHO).

**vinnyv1k** · 12-28-2015, 03:24 PM

The ES165 is a wonderful guitar. Basically a single pickup 175.

**Bob P.** · 12-28-2015, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

The ES165 is a wonderful guitar. Basically a single pickup 175.

What type of playing situations have you used it? Is it suitable for 16+ pc. big band? Or, do you think it's more conducive to smaller group situations? Does it have much if any acoustic characteristics, given that it's laminated?

Thanks,
Bob P.

**Stringswinger** · 12-28-2015, 04:00 PM

+1 on the Gibson 175/165.

There is nothing like the real thing...

**Woody Sound** · 12-28-2015, 04:31 PM

Shall we assume you know the difference between a lam and carved top? If you play in fairly quiet setting the Eastman would be nice. But in my experience the Eastman carved tops feed back quite a bit in louder settings.

**vinnyv1k** · 12-28-2015, 04:46 PM

Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, etc....never had a problem handling any type of musical situation with that type of guitar. The set in humbucker 165 will handle anything you need it to do. It has always been a Gibson best buy.
If you found one in mint condition I would be driving 90mph to go get it.

**nopedals** · 12-28-2015, 04:58 PM

> Shall we assume you know the difference between a lam and carved top?

I was wondering the same thing. I can't tell from his post what he wants, other than that he wants a smaller guitar and doesn't want to pay more than 2 grand. The bit about a 16 piece big band gives us a hint. If he wants something with good acoustic sound at home, and wants to do a Freddy Green thing with the big band, that might suggest a carved top, but he also says he's concerned about feedback. Either way, a 175 type guitar does not sound like what he wants.

**Bob P.** · 12-28-2015, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by nopedals

> Shall we assume you know the difference between a lam and carved top?

I was wondering the same thing. I can't tell from his post what he wants, other than that he wants a smaller guitar and doesn't want to pay more than 2 grand. The bit about a 16 piece big band gives us a hint. If he wants something with good acoustic sound at home, and wants to do a Freddy Green thing with the big band, that might suggest a carved top, but he also says he's concerned about feedback. Either way, a 175 type guitar does not sound like what he wants.

To clarify……….yes,i do know the difference between the two different tops. I've actually never played a 175/165, so i was hoping someone here who has would be able to quantify if it could handle either/both of the playing situations that i mentioned. Yes, looking for a smaller scale on a somewhat limited budget. All while still maintaining a good traditional jazz tone. Seems fairly uncomplicated to me.

Thanks,

Bob P.

**KirkP** · 12-28-2015, 05:24 PM

The question I'd start with: do you ever want to play unplugged or lightly amplified to sound more like an acoustic than electric? If so, you probably need a solid carved top with a floating pickup. If you always want to play plugged in and are looking for more of an electric sound, a laminated top with set pickup(s) is probably the way to go.

**vinnyv1k** · 12-28-2015, 07:26 PM

Bob it is uncomplicated. If you love the tone of your Super 400 and 335 you will love the tone of a 175/165...trust me.
Most people that love the sound of Gibson's stay with a Gibson. You said you wanted a traditional jazz tone. Who can beat Gibson in that department and at your price range. Get the 165, it is a no brainer.
I would NEVER be without a 175 period.

**Stringswinger** · 12-28-2015, 07:37 PM

+1 on what Vinny said. If you do not take his advice this time, you will take his advice soon thereafter......

**Bob P.** · 12-28-2015, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Bob it is uncomplicated. If you love the tone of your Super 400 and 335 you will love the tone of a 175/165...trust me.
Most people that love the sound of Gibson's stay with a Gibson. You said you wanted a traditional jazz tone. Who can beat Gibson in that department and at your price range. Get the 165, it is a no brainer.
I would NEVER be without a 175 period.

Thank you sir. I'm in agreement with you on all of that. Hopefully i'll be doing just that on wednesday. Sent you an email earlier. You can PM or email if you want. Thanks again for steering me where i know i would really like to go.

Bob P.