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There are two possible reasons why the "cheap" amps sound good at Guitar Center - one being the guys playing them are good players, the other being amps sound usually much better "off axis" (at a distance) than "on axis" (close, like in a bedroom").
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
As in most other markets product value increases are smaller and not proportional as prices go up. A 3k amp does not sound 3 times better than a 1k, probably only a little better. You could get away with, say, a silverface fender, which can be had quite cheap - but lots of people choose more expensive modern amps mainly because they can afford them. Same with archtops, I guess.Last edited by jorgemg1984; 12-23-2015 at 05:33 AM.
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12-23-2015 04:50 AM
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I have to get a lot, LOT better at playing before I need to start worrying about the amp's tone
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Same tone stack, different power sections: Twin AB763 is 6L6 with solid state rectifier, Deluxe AB763 & Princeton AA1164 are 6V6 with tube rectifiers. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
It's much easier, and takes less practice, to worry about tone than to get better at playing. I'll stick with worrying about tone and forget about becoming a good player. Originally Posted by Moominpapa
I have to get a lot, LOT better at playing before I need to start worrying about the amp's tone
Now I'm off to The Gear Page to obsess on tone with those who have devoted their lives to such pursuits.Last edited by MaxTwang; 12-23-2015 at 06:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by mrcee
The under $100 Fender amp. A man after my own heart!
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1) they all do sound different - heck, I have two blackface Vibrolux Reverbs - one has two JBL D110Fs and one has two C10Qs - speakers make a big difference; or try tube rolling - they also make a big difference; or if you're hardcore - change out different cap values
2) a 1x12 combo fills the room differently than a 2x12 combo, but a head and various 2x12 cabs give you more versatility and is arguably easier to carry if you have a car
3) a good vintage tube amp doesn't lose its value or breakdown beyond repair
4) a 10 watt amp is going to hit its sweet spot at a different volume than a 40 watt amp
5) 6L6s for example don't sound like 6V6s
could go on
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A Twin Reverb has a mid pot. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Most reverb blackface amps share a lot of characteristic sonic qualities up to about 3 on the volume. Then, they start to separate themselves.
All blackface reverb amps have a softness to me. Putting an outboard 60s Fender reverb unit in front of an amp will also add that softness.
I think a blackface Deluxe Reverb would be my desert island amp. I've owned probably over 100 amps. Haven't messed with solid state since high school. All my pedals are analog - even my boost pedals run tubes at real voltage.
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I have 2 PJ's and neither of them hum very much. Tubes make a difference in those amps, I use a 5721 in v1 and a 12Au7 in V2 and a good matched pair of JJ el84's in the power section. Originally Posted by jkstigma
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Ignorance is bliss. I used to hang out at theampgarage and read these posts by very technical builders - hearing a preamp tube not correctly biased to the schematics voltage, or a unbalanced vs balanced phase inverter. Eventually after being inside amps enough, I could hear some of this stuff. It can bother you. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Obviously, there's the big argument of being able to hear the difference between capacitors of the same value but different material. Or Ken Fischer of Trainwreck amps being able to hear the difference between different colored wires.
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The short answer is "yes". Originally Posted by AlsoRan
The slightly longer answer is that the amp is an integral part of the electric guitar, like the sound board on an acoustic. To treat the amp like an after-thought does everyone a disservice. Working on your tone is every bit as important as working on your notes.
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I am way, way more anal about the guitar action, feel, tone and playability.
I already know what I like for my ideal amp, which is a valve tube amp. 60 watts, 12" speaker. I have several that I like and one that I have gigged with consistently for 8 plus years. I am going to see what NAMM has to offer in tubes this year. Maybe there will be something that interests me. However another older Fender tube amp that doesn't weigh a ton might be cool.
Otherwise I have been scouring around for a suitable small SS amp to take on gigs so I can save my back, which is a mess. The variables though, tend to be numerous. I can't really get a feel for how an amp sounds and performs until I perform live with it and discover any issues.
Well, the main issue is that SS sucks (to me). It is a challenge to find something that un-sucks. I don't like playing through SS. The sound generally bothers me. It doesn't matter a bit what other players use, and in fact if another jazz guitar player is playing through SS live when I am listening, I don't tend notice the tone at all if the guitar is played at reasonable levels with reasonable EQ. But, boy, hook me up to a SS amp, and I sure notice fast.
I gig quite a bit. Just jazz gigs. However, whatever types of gigs one plays, the process is similar. You tend to play many different rooms, which can be live or dead or neutral, maybe too much tile and glass, maybe too much carpeting and padded furniture, the sound can be absorbed or conversely not absorbed at all and reflected by the material and decor. It all matters.
Then there are sizes..... small, medium or large spaces, crowded or empty halls, quiet or noisy crowds, solo guitar, duo with upright, trio with drums and so on. Each added instrument requires more juice from the amp.
The dynamics of a room can change. Empty at the start and the amp sounds great, filled up later and the amp sounds like mush. The volume can be fairly low, the acoustics perfect during the first set, however by the second set, the volume can double, the acoustics can change completely because more bodies absorb the sound, noise levels can skyrocket as people shout to be heard over the music, the volume of the band increases, the crowd noise increases (insert vicious cycle here)
Ahhh... vocals? well, let's add vocals, which need to be heard (we would hope). Proper PA? Nice big fat juicy JLB cabinets? Mic plugged into the guitar amp? What about separation of sound on the bandstand? Placement of amps? Dry or wet guitar sound? Dry or wet vocals? The dead, dull atmosphere of a room you are playing drinking up everything that emanates from the bandstand? or the atmosphere of the room is so live that you might as well be inside an empty, booming, concrete parking structure at 3 AM.
Volume? Is the archtop guitar feeding back constantly, is the drummer too loud and bashing out a constant drum solo through the ballads, complaining about not getting fed, while the bass player only plays in Eb?
Did you bring a dinky lightweight, vertebrae saving SS amp to a gig thinking the room would be tiny and intimate, when in fact it's a cavern with carpets on the floors, walls, ceiling, carpets on the crowd itself, which is loud and drunk and some yahoo is requesting Johnny B Goode at the 'we were booked to do Sinatra standards" or "we were told it was gonna be a cool, receptive jazz crowd' and instead you get an audience that is unreceptive, inconsiderate, or plain rude, or seems to have landed in a UFO from the jazz hating planet Bizarro ... and the people that hired you have fled, in fear of their lives because they hired a jazz band for the Mexican drug lord instead of the Mariachi band he requested, leaving the band to it's lonely, dismal fate......
Ok, so the last bit is a stretch, however the variables playing live can be numerous, even if the crowd appreciates you, and getting a bead on your exact, desired sound, with whatever you happened to show up with that night, can still be a challenge. So, on top of that, if you are guessing at some amp's qualities or performance capabilities buying one in a music store, or worse yet, online, it is, at best, a bit of a crap shoot.
I am over the top with my examples, of course, however the point is that for people who don't play live, or don't play the whole spectrum of 'cool to crappy' gigs, the 'what should I expect or accept for an amp sound?' may certainly be harder to discern than if they were dragging one or another type or size of guitar amp all over creation to every conceivable gigging situation.
For those of us who have had the pleasure of experiencing any or all above scenarios, and aren't blessed playing big venues filled with adoring fans, expert sound men, and getting only green colored M & Ms in the dressing room, finding the right amp for the right situation may take a bit of experimenting.
Just saying....Last edited by docdosco; 12-23-2015 at 10:55 PM.
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I am very happy with my amp. Used Fender Hotrod Deluxe -- $450. A couple of very important mods, reverb and tone stack tone -- $12 (Whether from the factory or upgraded by the original owner, it came with a Celestion Vintage 30 already installed). And it's a bang up rig. Great tone at any volume. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
How can an amp be too loud when the volume control goes down to zero? Well, this one was. When you turned it up from zero the volume kicked in suddenly at a certain threshold, but I fixed that too with another well-known mod, replacing the linear taper volume pots with log taper. I fixed that too (part of the $12). Now it fades up from nothing to all hell breaking loose with the smoothest graduation.
I care most about tone when recording, less when playing live ('cause conditions are rarely ideal), and hardly at all when I'm practicing (unless I'm practicing getting a certain sound).
I'm very picky about how a guitar feels and sounds, but one thing I've found is that if I like the feel and sound of a guitar without an amp, then it's probably going to sound OK to me through almost any amp.
To me there's only 3 kinds of amps: Fender, Marshall, and Mesa Boogie. All other amps sound like a variation of one of those, Marshall and Boogie both being variations of Fender (which in turn is a variation of an example circuit from an old RCA tube manual).
I love tube amps, but I've had some wonderful solid state ones. A Peavey Bandit 75. A 100-Watt Acoustic combo with 6 10s.
All good.
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Yup there is that 10k mid pot which is easily negated by turning its dial no? Check the schematic, no capacitance there, only a 10k pot while the other amps have a fixed 6.8k resistor to ground instead which to my way of thinking is a middle pot set (I know they're not linear) at ~5-7? So as I said the tone stacks are essentially the same. Originally Posted by HeyNow
And at volume ~3-4 on a twin you're probably in cruising range on many smaller amps, and with a master volume (I know some hate em, I do not) the desired breakup can be dialed in too.
And I agree totally that the little Fenders at what 15-25 watts are great sounding, but aside from the size and weight penalty the big Fenders can and do deliver tone that is NOT harsh or hard at low volume levels.
I see the bigger issue in the big amps as far as sound goes is the size and amount of speakers and tube types. The "Twin" can easily be made to work with a single 8 ohm 12", or even a single or pair of 10's with an adapter plate(s) (or change out the front speaker panel for 10's only) and can also work with only two power tubes if the output impedance is understood and addressed correctly. The twin (and others in this chassis type) are extremely flexible, most don't take advantage of this flexibility though.
No extension cabs, or microphones ever needed, my desert island amp is a twin chassis :-)
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And here I was all ready to get a new amp. now I'm doubting it. I don't got the space and I already have a good amp
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To me, a pot and a fixed resistor are two totally different mechanical devices that allow two different ranges of tone. I can't get the mids of a TR middle pot at 99% of its positions on a DR unless I modify the DR (which, I actually have on my DR). Originally Posted by GNAPPI
I have a '68 Dual Showman Reverb for my Twin fix. Reverb on both channels, the normal channel has more Marshall-y cap values, and the Reverb channel has most of the common Jerry Garcia mods (silver mica, Orange Drops). Push it through a 2x12 with JBL D120s. Bought the head before people realized it's a Twin Reverb in head form and the prices skyrocketed.
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Nope a resistor is not a mechanical device, and a if a pot were glued at some setting there is no difference in that circuit than a fixed resistor would audibly provide. Originally Posted by HeyNow
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But, the pot isn't glued Originally Posted by GNAPPI
mechanical: working or produced by machines
device: a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, especially a mechanical or electrical one.
this is sillyLast edited by HeyNow; 12-24-2015 at 01:10 AM.
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Not on my part. You conveniently miss my point, and would rather google words than look at what I type. Fact is electrically you have no mechanical leg to stand on. Originally Posted by HeyNow
PS. look up the word metaphor, it applies to my saying "glued"Last edited by GNAPPI; 12-24-2015 at 01:25 AM.
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The weight is one thing you can't ignore. You can't expect to walk into the gig like you're carrying a briefcase into an office. It's much more industrial. Get a handtruck. Originally Posted by docdosco
And you're right. Unless you are always in the same place, you can't always depend on your amp to sound the same. I get by with one 40-watt amp carrying a mic, stand, and cable to feed the PA when necessary.
You will be told sometimes that the sound of your amp coming off the stage is better than your sound coming out of the system when the amp is mic'ed. That's mostly out of your control. You just try to get it sounding good enough to move on from it and play.
Ironically, your sound is in truth the only thing, yet it's never the main thing.
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I also love the sound of tube amps. And of course, that comes with a set of challenges like it only sounds great at the sweet spot (typically too loud), breaks up when it is not supposed to, the directionality of the speaker etc.
To me things really changed when I got a Kemper. I just profiled all my amps including a twin, a polytone, an AER and even my LR Baggs preamp pedal. Took a few hours one day (after which I invited my wife for a nice dinner to compensate her for all that noise I made :-)). I profiled with the amps at their sweet spot (yes, that was very loud for the twin).
Now I have that authentic sound through a Bose L1 compact at any volume level with perfect sound dispersion, any amount of gain. The Kemper also let's you tweak it to taste and frequently the profiles sound better to me than the originals. I also think that the built in effects are very very good (Jack Z did not think so, but my perception is different). I have actually not turned on any of my amps since I got the Kemper. With a bit of tweaking one can even make piezo pickups sound good.
It weighs less than 10 pounds and has every imaginable output option. Hence you can drive a valve poweramp or a PA or a powered speaker or a passive speaker and have consistent sound everywhere and at any volume. You can turn off the cab profile when you go into an actual guitar amp and even turn off the mic profile such that it sounds like the actual amp in the room through the FRFR system rather than a mic'ed amp. It really makes playing with a band under challenging acoustic conditions so much easier and is completely convenient for home use too.
There are 7500 or so profiles freely available on the web and for a few bucks more from companies. I think there is something for virtually everybody. IMHO thee is. Nothing not to like. Whn i have time, I'll start a thread and maybe we can compare a few profiles here between those who have one.
Merry Christmas to everybody!
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You could ask the same questions about guitars, or pretty much any other piece of gear, and the explanation would be similar. I think anybody who has been playing for a while hears differences between amps, but it matters more to some than others. That in turn is a function of one's requirements, one's ability to tolerate stuff not meeting those requirements, and the practical limitations one faces.
Most of my playing outside the home is through amps in rehearsal studios or clubs' backlines of varying styles and quality, so I'm used to playing through a lot of different stuff. I can definitely hear the differences, and have preferences, but I adapt without obsessing over the rig du jour not being exactly what I want. I don't much like Roland JC 120's or Marshall stacks, but if that's what's in the room, I make it work.
I like most flavors of small and mid size Fenders, so for what I own, I've had no trouble finding amps I like in that vein, and haven't churned through very many on a quest for THE one. Most of the players I come across are of similar casts of mind. But when you're in a forum devoted to discussing gear, you tend to encounter more people who are pickier about their gear requirements.
John
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AlsoRan, Originally Posted by AlsoRan
By the way, I never, ever plug in at home unless I am testing an amp. Even when I teach my handful of students, my students (even the ones with thinelines) rarely plug in. I have a second archtop handy for students so that they don't even need to bring a guitar.
Why, someone who always uses a practice amp might ask?
Because I don't have to. (and can't be bothered) I have a carved top 17" jazz box that sounds just tits as an acoustic guitar. It sits by my computer desk and I can turn around, pick it up and play. I have my book of jazz/standards/lyrics on a music stand right there, my computer (MacBook Pro plus small reference monitors) my music programs: iReal Pro, Transcribe!, PDF reader for my 100s of fakes and sundry PDFs, Youtube to mp3 to strip audio, the multi-track and 2 track programs, the video programs, Microsoft Word (for the Mac, of course) plus the printer for lyrics, leadsheets and chord charts.... is all right in my grasp. (lazy sot that I am). I utilize Youtube a lot. I have 100 gigs of music, mostly jazz I can listen to, or pull bits and pieces from if I so choose.
For me, amps are for performing or rehearsing. Period. I leave 3 in the car most times. A 60 watt tube, a small and medium SS, along with a honking JBL EON powered PA cabinet I try not to use if can get away with it. In the car resides a music stand (2 actualy) a folding guitar stand, mic stand, 2 folding chairs, sack of cables, back support pad, chair cushion, foot stand. 2 50 Ft extension cables .....yada, yada yada (All I need now is a back truss and portable traction device)
I am sure there others here who don't bother to plug in at home. It's just an extra unnecessary step in the signal path....
: )
DocLast edited by docdosco; 12-24-2015 at 01:52 PM.
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I agree with you, but a slightly longer answer is that there is a lot of room between treating the amp as an afterthought and obsessing over the amp. The in-between leaves room to focus on other aspects of musicianship and living. These aspects include 1) learning to make art with what you've got and 2) learning to be happy with what you've got. Yes, we all need to strive and dream, but until these two skills are mastered, it doesn't seem possible to me to dream in a healthy, productive way. Perhaps I'm missing something. (It wouldn't be the first time. Originally Posted by D.G.
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Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
I agree with you, but a slightly longer answer is that there is a lot of room between treating the amp as an afterthought and obsessing over the amp. The in-between leaves room to focus on other aspects of musicianship and living. These aspects include 1) learning to make art with what you've got and 2) learning to be happy with what you've got. Yes, we all need to strive and dream, but until these two skills are mastered, it doesn't seem possible to me to dream in a healthy, productive way. Perhaps I'm missing something. (It wouldn't be the first time.)
Good points. The amp is a tool. Nothing more. The sound coming from it and the guitar in your hands (and what your finger's create) is much more than that. Like you say, try to focus on what is really important. Obsessing just creates extra baggage and we have enough to cart to the gig as it is.....
- Philosopher Doc
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Originally Posted by John A.
Yep. yep, yep. Good observations. This is why I like this forum. I too have traded the quest for the 'perfect sound' for expediency. Perfect sound is very elusive anyway. Acceptable sound is more realistic. Bad sound is the thing to avoid.
I am off soon to drive 73 miles across the L.A. basin to play a Christmas eve party in Newport Beach, so I'll get all my 2 cents worth of replies in early before the nightmare of traffic. My gear is all packed up in the car. Weeeeee. Just my sack of charts and a new 17" spruce carved top to play tonight need to be carted to the vehicle.
Should be fun (hope springs eternal)
Doc
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I found my ideal amp when the Bose folks introduced the L1 series. By itself, it's too clean, clinical and digital-sounding for electric guitar, but with an outboard processor (some have tubes), it was amazingly consistent and right for virtually any gig. I've owned several, since I do a fair amount of live producing and bandleading, but the one I use on just about every single gig is a Compact. The thing is, it's a line array, so you never have to be "TOO" loud, the sound travels very far without losing volume or energy, so what you hear from it 6-8 feet behind you is pretty much what everybody hears. It's light, has a nice mic input and preamp along with the 1/4", and a 1/4" out for big venues to go into the house. And it's also its own monitor, I rarely have it in the house monitors, the entire band can hear it fine, and I rarely get volume criticism, from people a few feet from it. It's also great for nylon, either pickup or mic, and my 7-strings sound awesome through it. I use Zoom, Digitech and Korg stuff, as well as the Roland GR-55 synth, could not be happier with the sound and the ease of use.
Anyway, that's that
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