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You may very well be right. Clint played LPs for years when he was in Merle Haggard's band. I really am not all that knowledgable about Gibby solidbodies, because I really do not like them. That is a bunch of cash for a production solidbody guitar.
Originally Posted by Russ Kapp
If it were me, and I was going for that sort of thing, I would either buy Heritage or Collings. YMMV
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08-20-2009 11:40 AM
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I don't know which particular LP model would be "best". The least appropriate would surely be anything with hot pickups. I personally play a Heritage 150 loaded with Schaller units, which are very "PAF"-like and set pretty low. I also use med. gauge flatwounds and a med. high action which works well for me.
I've heard the quip about "who plays Jazz on a LP, oh yeah, Les Paul" (RIP) a few times, but I think there are few people playing Jazz who emulate Mr. Paul's particular sound/s. Correct me if I err.
In the Stella by Starlight clip, Clint Strong appears to be playing a LP custom and gets that immediate note projection, snap and sustain, digging-in induced breakup and bell-like tone associated with "the log". He has a light touch and in his youtube II V I LESSON, you can see he uses a plain 3rd string. I can no longer use light gauge strings myself as my fingers immediately say "ah, da Blues", but that's my problem. (But I really dig the tone afforded by fat strings and a high-ish action).
There is a clip of Bireli Lagrene playing the same tune on a hollow body and it's interesting to put them side by side. Most noticeable to me is less sustain, clearer note separation in chords and dimension. The Telecaster achieves pretty good note separation, so this may have quite a lot to do with the LP's scale length.
The Les Paul solid body guitar has long been associated with Rock probably because it was adopted by people who wanted to play at high volumes without feedback and with lotsa sustain. However, played clean and honest, it offers a very valid Jazz voice.
Hot Ford, I would love to have heard that 40th Anniversary of yours with 13's thru a Fender Twin.Last edited by Peter C; 08-20-2009 at 03:38 PM.
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I have a 2006 Les Paul Vintage Mahogany model that I think can work well for jazz tones (and rock tones). It has burstbucker pro pickups, which are voiced closer to classic 57s than the 490R/498T pickups. Not having a maple top gives it a little darker tone. It also supposedly has some chambers in the body making it lighter, which possibly could more effective towards jazz tones.
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Use this opportunity to join in. Hello from Finland! Been playing, on and off, since around 1960. Now focusing on swing-era stuff but my band does a lot of birthday, wedding and dance gigs so the gear arsenal has mushroomed to suit all needs.
IMHO, any LP will work for jazz but none is ideal. The two enemies, as pointed out by many, are the hot pickups and excessive sustain. These are exactly the properties that make the LP great for rock, blues and Santanaesque salsa. For jazz, the quick fix is to tame the pups by screwing them down all the way to the bottom of the pit, and to re-string with flatwounds. Almost lobotomy (fortunately reversible). but still no good for Freddie Green comping.
Anyone who can afford to alter a LP's personality should look into a cheap Chinese thinbody for a much better jazz-rock compromise. My white LP Studio with gold plated hardware exists only because it looks great on black tie gigs. For me, the ultimate allround axe-amp combination is the Yamaha SA 2200 + Cube 60. But that's a different subject altogether.
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Gold Top with P90s I like vintage P90s
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Les Paul didn't really play jazz -- he played improvisational pop -- and his tone was very different from most jazz players (also very different from most of the rock players who adopted the LP). A very interesting guy, and a great musician. One CD that I regularly play (out of my typical musician's collection of several hundred) is Chester and Lester, a compilation of two albums he did with Chet Atkins. I don't know of anyone else who played with that bright, stinging tone, but he sure made it work.
Anyhow, another LP that you might check out is the Deluxe, with mini humbuckers. It has a bad rep as a "Norlin" bitsa, that -- according to one thing I've read -- was a favorite of Les'. It has a lighter, singing tone in comparison to the muddy sounding full size humbucker. I have one and I don't really have any interest in the other models. This one does just what I like to hear.
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John, you sure bring a lot of value-added information to this forum ! Thanks and I love my Chet/Les CD too. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Oh yes, my '83 natural-finish LP Deluxe, it had some interesting dichotomies - heavy and characteristically sustaining but with Johnny Smith pickups that kept distortion at manageable levels. I was still playing pop music at the time and thought that the $700 (new) price was reasonable.
I gave the Deluxe up when I bought a Carvin DC-150 (slightly lighter and had the single-coil/out-of-phase pickup options). I thought that I could do the LP and Strat functions with the one guitar but I was wrong.
I violated a personal rule not to divest a guitar hastily, REGARDLESS of how rational the reason for doing so might seem. I broke the rule and regret it, that was one very sweet solid-body guitar. (The Carvin is also a sweetheart but I'd prefer to own BOTH !)
I'm searching for a photograph but the only one I come up with is a stage photo - me w/Ovation Custom Legend - and the Deluxe in the background, on a stand (just a small slice of it).
How about a close-up of yours ?
cheersLast edited by randyc; 10-05-2009 at 02:06 AM.
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The covers surrounding the pickup rings are known as "goof hiders" and appear on the earlier Deluxes that were originally routed for P90s. They hide tooling marks.
The pickups themselves are Seymour Duncan SM-1s, and sound remarkably similar to the originals. The bridge pickup had gotten very weak, so I replaced both in the expectation that, where one failed, so might another. Retaining the sound was vital because that's why I bought the guitar to begin with.
Wives roll their eyes: their mothers teach them to do that. It's their way of compensating for the fact that they can't appreciate large collections of gorgeous instruments.
As I may have said before, just ensure that your wife doesn't sell your collection for what you told her you paid for it.
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One of the many nice things about P-90s is that the magnets are easily replaceable when the pickup performance starts to degrade ... have to remove the covers on humbuckers to do this (not that it's a big deal).
You have a very pretty guitar, John and now I recall the story behind those covers ... it was due to a pickup shortage of 'buckers at the factory and a resurgence of popularity of the LP, which had previously been declining.
Someone observed that there were lots of Johnny Smith pickups in inventory so the LP Deluxe was born, along with the rings that were used for the purpose that you described ...
(My particular Deluxe was routed, not for P-90's, but for standard humbuckers so the Johnny Smith pickups dropped into the existing holes readily. They looked a little strange to me at first but I got used to it soon.)
cheers
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In The Gibson Les Paul Book by Bacon & Day, the story goes that Gibson, having reissued the gold top with P-90s, faced a dealer revolt over the lack of humbuckers, which were on the Les Pauls from the late '50s that prominent rockers were playing. Norlin was famously stingy on tooling, but Jim Deurloo discovered that the Epiphone minis in stock (you'll remember they were standard on the Epi Sheratons, pre-offshore manufacture) would drop into the cavities routed for P-90s. Management went for the idea of easily solving the problem and the Deluxe was born.
That's the only place I've seen that version of the tale, but I always thought it was rang true, since the Deluxe retained the peculiar Epi mounting system (distinct from the JS, which mounted the pickup on tabs attached to the sides of the fingerboard).
It also confirms other things I have heard about Norlin, i e: that they would think the minis would satisy the LP fanatics, and is part and parcel with the decisions to go to the pancake body, neck volute, peghead angle and shallow top carve, all of which, by the way, are present on mine.
I'm sure you are right about the ease of changing out the magnets, but I didn't then know of all the resources available [this being before I had access to the internet].
I might pursue that, in fact: I still have the original pickups, and I'd love to get rid of the SD logo.
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I'll agree with that! Here's my two Chinese LP clones onstage last weekend. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I am playing a 2008 Xaviere XV-500. It originally came with ceramic pickups similar to DiMarzio Super Distortions. I replaced them with GFS Vintage 59 pickups and put in Orange Drop caps. I also replaced the rather-poor stock tuners with Grover 18:1 Rotomatics. The odd position of my right hand is due to the fact I am tucking my pick in my curled middle finger to allow me to play a tap octave harmonic with my index finger.
On the guitar stand: 2005 Epiphone '56 Gold Top. It has Lindy Fralin P-90s. I upgraded the electronics as well as the bridge. It came with Grover Rotomatics, but I didn't think they looked right on the guitar, so I got Grover Vintage Deluxe keystones.
In this particular band, I'm playing classic rock, but these guitars have no problem covering other genres. As Gitterbug said, they're not perfect for jazz, but you can coax good tones out of them. The key is the pickups aren't overly hot, so they produce a good, clean sound.
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hi there, please, let me in in your LP fun club
here is my recorded little example of LP experience (Deluxe 69, but moded with full-sized humbuckers) played directly into a mixing console.
Is that a jazzy sound?
While my ears like that sound, my back doesn't like the weight of the instrument (4 kg, or approx.8,8 lb) and my ribs don't like the ergonomics of the guitar body.Last edited by Ivan; 10-09-2009 at 04:03 AM.
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I just bought an Edwards LP-130. Clone of gibson lespaul (light relic finish), and equipped with 2 seymour duncans "antiquities" pickup.
It has a nice vintage sound, and the neck pick sound very warm.
Plus, the neck thickness is between the 50's and 60's gibson profile, so, it has a nice "jazz" feeling.
I also have at home an aria herb ellis, with a gibson classic 57 on neck pickup. That's a cool jazz sound : warm and resonnant, with the just amount of "kick" in the sound.
I can't have this "archtop" sound with my Edwards ( as good as a standart les paul gibson), but a nice "jazz style" sound.
I can try to reach a better "jazz tone", using a light "compressor", and add a little equ wih mid/bass boost.
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"Jack Pearson plays and explains some wonderful jazz melody ideas on a Gibson Les Paul".
I don't know this guy, but just listen to that tone. (2nd half of the clip holds few surprises)
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I use a 1996 cherry sunburst Gibson Les Paul Custom for jazz....
It's playability is so nice, and I like the size of the guitar.
Sound-wise I'm into a dark, fat, and airy tone alá Jim Hall, Pat Martino, etc.
(I'm thinking about changing the pickups. Right now I use vintage DiMarzio PAF's from mid 70's, but they sound a bit too bright for the jazz tone I'm after. The last couple of years I've been playing rock and blues mostly when doing gigs. That's why I used those pickups. But fortunately I'm playing more jazz than ever now. So these days I don't need the guitar to cover other styles than jazz. That's why I would like some darker pickups... any recommendations?)
Put some heavy flatwounds on a Les Paul, roll off some tone, and you're in jazz heaven!!! Stringing it this way is what it was intended for, and sounds amazing.
Right now my only amp is a Peavey Classic 30, since I sold my other amps to get a new one. I'm thinking about getting a Henriksen Jazz Amp (112) or a Fender Twin Reverb (but it's so damn heavy).
In a couple of years I plan on buying a Gibson ES-175 or another Les Paul Custom (I would really like a vintage Black Beauty!!!).
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Ooh! Good thread. Definitely low impedance pickups are the key for me in softening up the very bright sound of a solid body. There is one pickup I want to try out for the neck position one day and it is made by Dimarzio. It is called the Air Zone. I don't recall, but i think they have a gap between the magnet and the pole pieces to lessen the magnetic strength directed upward by the poles.
Outside of that, I'd probably go with Seth's or 57 Classics.
I have a Heritage H140 that has good sounding Schallers but it is just slightly off what I like and I attribute that to the AlNiCo 5 magnets. I am considering getting some AlNiCo 2's and putting those on them. Simple mod.
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Cool.... can you tell me or guide me towards any resources about this matter (dark pickups for bright sound solid bodies)? Originally Posted by barrymclark
I've thought about getting a pair of Gibson 57's, but I've just heard, that they aren't that different from what I already have (Dimarzio PAF's - they were installed on the guitar when I bought it).
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The Les Paul Studio Vintage Mahogany (or sometimes referred to as Faded) work well for jazz because they don't have a maple top. They're mahogany, so they are a little darker than a maple topped guitar which works well for a jazz tone on the neck humbucker. Plus, they're also very affordable Les Paul models.
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In strung my Epiphone Les Paul Plus Top with D'Addarios Chromes (hybrid set: 0.014, 0.017, 24w, and the rest from a set of 11s), and I love it. I don't even roll off the tone. I like it a little brighter than that muted old-style jazz tone.
I don't ever use the brisdge pickup, though.
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BEST Les Paul for Jazz?
Wes Paul:
Les Paul Custom with
- carved spruce top
- hollow chambers
- single '57 classic, volume, tone
- trapeze tailpiece
A few were made in the late 1990's.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-21-2017 at 05:23 AM.
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I'd never seen one of those before. It seems to have the same shape and size as a LP, but in all other respects it's a different instrument. Looks like a prototype. I wouldn't turn down an offer to play one, preferably with a wooden bridge.
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The "Wes Paul" is a Les Paul Custom with a chambered body, spruce cap and trapeze tailpiece. Closest more readily available Gibson model is the now-defunct plain-jane, two-pickup ES-447. Originally Posted by Peter C
The Les Paul Florentine is a Les Paul Custom with a chambered body, and f-holes in the maple cap. Originally called the Bantam when it was introduced @1993, it came from the Custom Shop with 57 Classic pickups. It sounds pretty much the same and is built pretty much the same as all sorts of other current and recent Custom Shop "Chambered Reissue" Les Pauls with maple caps. The chambering doesn't make it sound hollow but does add some resonance - just another very nice flavour of Les Paul solid-body guitar with reduced weight.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-21-2017 at 05:23 AM.
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Why is there so little love for this guitar among jazzers? Demand for this model was so low, that it was discontinued in 1960, and until British blues rockers created a new awareness of them, there was not enough demand to produce them again until 1968 for the rock market.
I got thinking about quality workhorse guitars, and really wonder why the Les Paul is not considered more often as a huge value with an entry price of about $800. It surely plays and sounds as nice as Gibsons that cost thousands of dollars.
It's got the Gibson scale, neck, pickups, and quality construction that seems to be the standard for many jazz guitarists. I understand the hollowbody camp craves the quick decay of a jazzbox that equates to a "woodier" sound, but for those that play a 335, a Fender, or some other solid or semihollow, I am really surprised that more don't consider it as a serious option for a guitar that is worth playing.
What's up with that?
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This is a really good point. I used to have a Les Paul Custom 1954 Historic Collection reissue with the thicker neck and I really liked it for jazz. I put .013 flats on it, brought up the action a bit and used the neck pickup (an Alnico V) exclusively. It was mellow, warm, had a beautiful jazz tone and with its black finish and Super 400 type headstock inlays, it was very elegant looking. It may have been a slight bit brighter than an archtop but the sound was still very traditional, more than enough for a jazz guitar. Its weight seems to be the only disadvantage I can think of. The reason I sold it was because I had to thin out the collection so I didn't have more guitars than I could evacuate if I needed to. Besides, it was one of the 9 guitars I sold so I could buy the 39 D'A Excel I now play.
The only thing I can think of for it being the unloved step child is because 1) it's considered a rock guitar by so many people and 2) the prejudice that a guitar can't be a jazz guitar without F or S holes. I play an archtop strictly because I love the look of an archtop with the vintage DeArmond style floating pickups and because the archtop was so prevalent in jazz history of the 30's and 40's. Otherwise, I wouldn't care what a guitar looked like.
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They're heavy as hell, and quite expensive...last time I checked the only models around $800 were Epiphones...even Studios are well over a grand now.
I find them to be small and uncomfortable to play.
Just one man's opinion...my guess is the real reason more jazzers don't take to them is the "rock" image...irony, eh?
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